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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Income tax and "theft" (Read 1290 times)
Dr.Entropy
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Income tax and "theft"
Jun 30th, 2019 at 3:30pm
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Suppose there is this company, let's call it CompanyX, that is owned by a large group of shareholders. CompanyX decides to make and distribute artificial glass seashells that are nearly impossible to reproduce without CompanyX's patented artificial-glass-seashell-maker. The seashells are quite beautiful and people decide to use them as bartering items to the point that they act as a form of currency.

CompanyX retains ownership of the seashells but lets people borrow them under the condition that 20% of the seashells a person borrows, regardless of where they borrowed them from, is returned to CompanyX as a seashell use fee. CompanyX then uses the profits from this fee either to make more seashells, make other products, give to charity, or support CompanyX's private space venture SpaceNexus. CompanyX also has its own security company SecuTon to protect its assets and the safety of its shareholders. Is CompanyX acting within the rules of a libertarian free market?

If so, then replace CompanyX with the US Federal Government, the seashells with "fiat money", the shareholders with the citizens of the United States, the seashell use fee with income taxes, charity with welfare, SpaceNexus with NASA, and SecuTon with US Marshals, FBI, and US Military. How would the US Government's collection of income taxes be any different than CompanyX collecting a seashell use fee?

If ComanyX is not acting within the rules of a libertarian free market then how so?

Your input is greatly appreciated.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Income tax and "theft"
Reply #1 - Jun 30th, 2019 at 4:03pm
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Dr.Entropy wrote on Jun 30th, 2019 at 3:30pm:
Suppose there is this company, let's call it CompanyX, that is owned by a large group of shareholders. CompanyX decides to make and distribute artificial glass seashells that are nearly impossible to reproduce without CompanyX's patented artificial-glass-seashell-maker. The seashells are quite beautiful and people decide to use them as bartering items to the point that they act as a form of currency.

CompanyX retains ownership of the seashells but lets people borrow them under the condition that 20% of the seashells a person borrows, regardless of where they borrowed them from, is returned to CompanyX as a seashell use fee. CompanyX then uses the profits from this fee either to make more seashells, make other products, give to charity, or support CompanyX's private space venture SpaceNexus. CompanyX also has its own security company SecuTon to protect its assets and the safety of its shareholders. Is CompanyX acting within the rules of a libertarian free market?

If so, then replace CompanyX with the US Federal Government, the seashells with "fiat money", the shareholders with the citizens of the United States, the seashell use fee with income taxes, charity with welfare, SpaceNexus with NASA, and SecuTon with US Marshals, FBI, and US Military. How would the US Government's collection of income taxes be any different than CompanyX collecting a seashell use fee?

If ComanyX is not acting within the rules of a libertarian free market then how so?

Your input is greatly appreciated.
That's quite bizarre. Smiley
  

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Dr.Entropy
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Re: Income tax and "theft"
Reply #2 - Jun 30th, 2019 at 4:18pm
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The purpose of my post was to question the notion that taxation (or at least income taxation) is theft. If the existence of US money is contingent on the existence of the US Federal Government then why doesn't the Federal Government have a right to levy taxes for use of money that it created?

It seems that by passing the 16th Amendment, Congress and the States were communicating their demand that persons aquiring money created by the Federal Reserve after 1913 must agree to pay a portion of that money back or simply not use said money. To call it theft would imply a foreign entity not involved in the creation or voluntary exchange of the federal money entering the picture and taking the money for itself.
  
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Little Biq Man
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Re: Income tax and "theft"
Reply #3 - Jun 30th, 2019 at 4:45pm
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Doctor, you post might have a valid point if I were allowed to work for others, sell my property and live on my land without being taxed so long as I used gold, silver or some form of barter.

But U.S. law not only requires that FRNs be accepted for all debts, they specify that being paid in other than fiat money does not alleviate the tax that I "owe."

If I have a valuable bottle cap collection that I pass on to my heirs, they will either have to sell part of the collection to pay the tax, or pony up out of their own pockets.

  
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The Opposition
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Re: Income tax and "theft"
Reply #4 - Jun 30th, 2019 at 4:51pm
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Dr.Entropy wrote on Jun 30th, 2019 at 3:30pm:
CompanyX retains ownership of the seashells but lets people borrow them under the condition that 20% of the seashells a person borrows, regardless of where they borrowed them from, is returned to CompanyX as a seashell use fee.


I suggested this before: That if this was a Terms of Service agreement on each dollar, you could have legitimate taxation.

It was shot down easily by the heavy hitters here.

The Opposition wrote on Dec 5th, 2018 at 9:34pm:
The Federal Reserve is a private business. Of course they can control their own product.

Consider it a ToS or Terms of Use on every dollar. There's no force involved.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: Income tax and "theft"
Reply #5 - Jun 30th, 2019 at 5:38pm
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Dr.Entropy wrote on Jun 30th, 2019 at 4:18pm:
The purpose of my post was to question the notion that taxation (or at least income taxation) is theft.
Oh.

Have you read any of the discussion on the subject that's already on the forum? There's been a lot of it. Shocked
  

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Jeff
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Re: Income tax and "theft"
Reply #6 - Jun 30th, 2019 at 5:42pm
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Dr.Entropy wrote on Jun 30th, 2019 at 4:18pm:
If the existence of US money is contingent on the existence of the US Federal Government then why doesn't the Federal Government have a right to levy taxes for use of money that it created?
Governments tax economic activity very heavily already, are you proposing a new type of tax?

BTW, in our Constitution, if you read it, you can find where Congress was granted the power to coin money and the duty of keeping its value stable, which is tricky if you start to screw around with it. Huge mistakes have been made... Shocked
  

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Dr.Entropy
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Re: Income tax and "theft"
Reply #7 - Jun 30th, 2019 at 7:04pm
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Little Biq Man wrote on Jun 30th, 2019 at 4:45pm:
Doctor, you post might have a valid point if I were allowed to work for others, sell my property and live on my land without being taxed so long as I used gold, silver or some form of barter.

But U.S. law not only requires that FRNs be accepted for all debts, they specify that being paid in other than fiat money does not alleviate the tax that I "owe."

If I have a valuable bottle cap collection that I pass on to my heirs, they will either have to sell part of the collection to pay the tax, or pony up out of their own pockets.



Good point.

If, however, you were allowed to use only gold, silver, bitcoin, etc. and not have to pay taxes for their use, would you consider an income tax on use of federal money to be legitimate?

...And yes, I know. This amounts to a "what if?" scenario.
  
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Dr.Entropy
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Re: Income tax and "theft"
Reply #8 - Jun 30th, 2019 at 7:08pm
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Jeff wrote on Jun 30th, 2019 at 5:38pm:
Have you read any of the discussion on the subject that's already on the forum? There's been a lot of it. Shocked


I'll have to peruse further. The forum is a little deep.  Smiley
  
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SkyChief
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Re: Income tax and "theft"
Reply #9 - Jun 30th, 2019 at 7:19pm
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Dr.Entropy wrote on Jun 30th, 2019 at 4:18pm:
It seems that by passing the 16th Amendment, Congress and the States were communicating their demand that persons aquiring money created by the Federal Reserve after 1913 must agree to pay a portion of that money back or simply not use said money.

The 16th Amendment was a terrible amendment.

It transferred power from the People to the Government.    That ALWAYS ends badly.

Restore Liberty!   Repeal the 16th!!   Smiley
« Last Edit: Jun 30th, 2019 at 8:52pm by SkyChief »  
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