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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Income tax and "theft" (Read 960 times)
Dr.Entropy
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Re: Income tax and "theft"
Reply #10 - Jun 30th, 2019 at 7:20pm
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Jeff wrote on Jun 30th, 2019 at 5:42pm:
Governments tax economic activity very heavily already, are you proposing a new type of tax?


By no means. I am merely discussing (or rather playing devil's advocate to) the moral legitimacy of income taxation under libertarian ethics.

I agree that too much taxation is problematic. If the federal income tax was 100%, no one would bother earning money. If it was 0%, the federal government would have a hard time generating revenue. It would be in the Fed's interest to have a low income tax, or at least a tax less than 50%.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Income tax and "theft"
Reply #11 - Jun 30th, 2019 at 7:46pm
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Dr.Entropy wrote on Jun 30th, 2019 at 7:20pm:
By no means. I am merely discussing (or rather playing devil's advocate to) the moral legitimacy of income taxation under libertarian ethics.
It's been talked to death on this forum already.

There's a "taxation is theft" argument from the anarchists, and not much else besides me talking about Constitutional grants of power and their limitations.

Anyway, when most people say or hear "income taxes" they think of the tax on their wages and salaries, unless they are living on incomes.

Which are you talking about?

If you're of the "taxation is theft" variety, why mention income taxes?
  

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Dr.Entropy
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Re: Income tax and "theft"
Reply #12 - Jun 30th, 2019 at 8:28pm
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Jeff wrote on Jun 30th, 2019 at 7:46pm:
It's been talked to death on this forum already.

There's a "taxation is theft" argument from the anarchists, and not much else besides me talking about Constitutional grants of power and their limitations.


I see.


Jeff wrote on Jun 30th, 2019 at 7:46pm:
Anyway, when most people say or hear "income taxes" they think of the tax on their wages and salaries, unless they are living on incomes.

Which are you talking about?


I'm referring to taxes on acquired money. This would include taxes on wages and salaries. I suppose that could also include sales tax, inheritance tax, capital gains tax, etc. Perhaps I'm using "income" too broadly if that is your point.
  
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SkyChief
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Re: Income tax and "theft"
Reply #13 - Jun 30th, 2019 at 8:50pm
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Dr.Entropy wrote on Jun 30th, 2019 at 4:18pm:
The purpose of my post was to question the notion that taxation (or at least income taxation) is theft.

Taxation definitely IS theft.   

Theft is (quite simply) the action or crime of stealing.   If I take something of yours which doesn't belong to me, and you are not freely giving it to me, that is theft.

By the same token, if the government takes something of yours which doesn't belong to them, and you are not freely giving it to them, that is theft, too.

"Since we believe that every man is entitled to keep the fruits of his labor, we are opposed to all government activity which consists of the forcible collection money or goods from citizens in violation of their individual rights. Specifically, we support the eventual repeal of all taxation." - Libertarian Party
  
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Little Biq Man
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Re: Income tax and "theft"
Reply #14 - Jun 30th, 2019 at 9:00pm
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Jeff wrote on Jun 30th, 2019 at 7:46pm:
It's been talked to death on this forum already.


Because you refuse to admit the obvious - that taking property by force is theft.

Quote:
There's a "taxation is theft" argument from the anarchists,


Since you will never let that go, let's say for the sake of argument that you are right.  Government cannot exist without theft.  How does that make theft not theft?

Quote:
and not much else besides me talking about Constitutional grants of power and their limitations.


Going back over your old arguments with LBM, you once said, "Taxation is morally justified theft."  You should go back to that moment of honesty. 

Calling theft morally justified makes no more sense than Gypsies claiming that God allows them to steal because a Gypsy stole the golden nail intended for Jesus' heart.  But at least that was your real belief, not this phony "A isn't A" argument you keep making.

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Anyway, when most people say or hear "income taxes" they think of the tax on their wages and salaries, unless they are living on incomes.

Which are you talking about?

If you're of the "taxation is theft" variety, why mention income taxes?


Right, because theft is theft.

Use the honesty, Jeff.  You can do it.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Income tax and "theft"
Reply #15 - Jul 1st, 2019 at 7:03am
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Dr.Entropy wrote on Jun 30th, 2019 at 8:28pm:
I see.



I'm referring to taxes on acquired money. This would include taxes on wages and salaries. I suppose that could also include sales tax, inheritance tax, capital gains tax, etc. Perhaps I'm using "income" too broadly if that is your point.
How about gifts? If I give you $100 for your birthday, that's "acquired money".. Suppose you find a $100 out in the woods... That's "acquired money".

Anyway, yes, you're using income far too broadly, as does the IRS.

Being retired, I no longer work for wages/salary, instead, I live off my incomes, which are derived from the portion of my property that I have invested in various things.

Incomes are great, you don't have to go to work every day to have them provide you with money! Smiley
  

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Jeff
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Re: Income tax and "theft"
Reply #16 - Jul 1st, 2019 at 7:05am
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SkyChief wrote on Jun 30th, 2019 at 8:50pm:
Taxation definitely IS theft.   

Theft is (quite simply) the action or crime of stealing.   If I take something of yours which doesn't belong to me, and you are not freely giving it to me, that is theft.

By the same token, if the government takes something of yours which doesn't belong to them, and you are not freely giving it to them, that is theft, too.

"Since we believe that every man is entitled to keep the fruits of his labor, we are opposed to all government activity which consists of the forcible collection money or goods from citizens in violation of their individual rights. Specifically, we support the eventual repeal of all taxation." - Libertarian Party
Some taxes are authorized by law Chief.

That's different from you picking my pocket.

Eventually repealing the laws that permit legal taxation is a nice dream...
  

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SkyChief
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Re: Income tax and "theft"
Reply #17 - Jul 1st, 2019 at 10:44am
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Jeff wrote on Jul 1st, 2019 at 7:05am:
Some taxes are authorized by law Chief.

Of course they are.

We libertarians don't question the legality of taxes.   

Any group of tyrants can gather together behind closed doors and pass laws which harm the citizens.   Many do.

Libertarians don't want to be coerced by government to do ANYTHING.

We want to be left alone to live our lives as we see fit.  Stay out of our wallets, purses, and bank accounts!  It doesn't belong to you.

If you want some of my money because you want to build a public school,  ASK for it.    Don't just STEAL it from us!

Smiley

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We are opposed to ALL government activity which consists of the forcible collection of money or goods from citizens in violation of their individual rights.
  
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Little Biq Man
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Re: Income tax and "theft"
Reply #18 - Jul 1st, 2019 at 11:10am
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Jeff wrote on Jul 1st, 2019 at 7:03am:
How about gifts? If I give you $100 for your birthday, that's "acquired money".. Suppose you find a $100 out in the woods... That's "acquired money".

Anyway, yes, you're using income far too broadly, as does the IRS.

Being retired, I no longer work for wages/salary, instead, I live off my incomes, which are derived from the portion of my property that I have invested in various things.

Incomes are great, you don't have to go to work every day to have them provide you with money! Smiley


in·come
/ˈinˌkəm/
Learn to pronounce
noun
noun: income; plural noun: incomes

    money received, especially on a regular basis, for work or through investments.
    "he has a nice home and an adequate income"
    synonyms:      earnings, salary, pay, remuneration, wages, stipend, emolument; More

Jeff, your definition of "income" is just plain wrong.

Income taxes are legal.  They suck and they should be abolished, but they are legal.

Enjoy your government check and stop being Johnny One-note.

  
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The Opposition
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Re: Income tax and "theft"
Reply #19 - Jul 1st, 2019 at 11:28am
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One thing libertarians can never do is agree on definitions.

...Because if they did that, they would have to discuss the actual issues.

Very few of them even have consistent positions on any issues, and although though Biq and Sky do, they aren't considered to be very libertarian like the heavy hitters here such as Jeff and Kaz.

Most of the time, a libertarian will ask you what you think, so he can find some way to attack and ridicule it. Libertarian philosophy is so ill-defined at the basic level so they'll always be able to back up what they say, even when they reverse their position.

No one knows if taxation is theft because no one knows what theft really is. They just know theft is always wrong. But if it's something they like, it won't be defined as theft, and if it's something they don't like, of course that's theft.

This isn't hostility from me: It's just stating facts. This method of definitional nebulosity works well, and obfuscation is not aggression, so it's a valid way to argue.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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