Libertarian's Forum
Libertarian Forum to discuss politics and free market economics.
Libertarian's ForumLibertarian's ForumFreedom Forum › Income tax and "theft"
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 ... 4 5 [6] 7 8  Send TopicPrint
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Income tax and "theft" (Read 1288 times)
SkyChief
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 11878
Location: California Coast
Joined: Aug 18th, 2014
Re: Income tax and "theft"
Reply #50 - Jul 2nd, 2019 at 10:46pm
Print Post  
The Opposition wrote on Jul 2nd, 2019 at 9:23pm:
Liberland would probably never take someone like Jeff because he would ruin their society.

Jeff would be banished from Liberland as soon as he lobbied for Tax funded Public Schools.   

In a libertarian SeaSteading colony, they would put Jeff on a raft with 2 weeks provisions, wish him luck, and set him adrift.

Libertarians are very serious about zero taxation.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Dr.Entropy
Junior Member
**
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 33
Joined: Jun 24th, 2019
Re: Income tax and "theft"
Reply #51 - Jul 3rd, 2019 at 12:20am
Print Post  
Jeff wrote on Jul 2nd, 2019 at 7:32am:
In reality, everything you have is "acquired" in one way or another.


But not everything I acquired was created by the government. Federally created money is (tautologically, of course).

Jeff wrote on Jul 2nd, 2019 at 7:32am:
My basic contention is that money you acquire by working is not "income" because it is the result of an exchange of things of equal value. You exchange your labor for "money" rather than utilizing your labor to directly grow food for yourself. Then, you can exchange the "money" you received in exchange for your labor to buy food. This is nothing like income.


So the government is not involved in any way when you acquire money for your labor or spend money for food and has no right to collect compensation for the creation and maintenance of the money system you are using, is that correct?

Perhaps credit card companies should be charged with extortion for levying service fees for your use of your hard earned money whenever you use a credit card. How dare they!  Angry


Jeff wrote on Jul 2nd, 2019 at 7:32am:
In the IRS's theory, if you give me five one's in exchange for a five dollar bill, you have received "something of value" and should be taxed.


From my understanding, the IRS only taxes net income over the course of the fiscal year, that is, it taxes gains_minus_losses. If you invest $5000 and get $3000 in return, that is a loss of $2000. Not only do you not have to pay taxes on the $3000 (as long as you show proof that you invested $5000) you can apply that -$2000 to whatever other income you acquire to reduce or even eliminate your tax burden (If that is not not the case I should fire my tax agent and start watching out for IRS agents  Sad).

In your currency exchange scenario, both of us start with $5 and both of us end up with $5 so neither of us generates a net profit in that exchange and thus neither of us have to apply our "acquisition" of $5 towards taxes.

But let's say you pay a next door neighbor $5 to mow your lawn. The IRS could rightfully ignore the subjective value of your neighbor's labor as that is not something the federal government created. All the IRS could "see" is the $5 that your neighbor acquired as that involves the use of the federal money system and thus should be taxed accordingly.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Dr.Entropy
Junior Member
**
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 33
Joined: Jun 24th, 2019
Re: Income tax and "theft"
Reply #52 - Jul 3rd, 2019 at 1:25am
Print Post  
The Opposition wrote on Jul 2nd, 2019 at 11:26am:
Bullshit. Tolerating anything is not aggression.


Good point. Stones, door nobs, and rusty nails tolerate everything and nobody accuses them of aggression.

The Opposition wrote on Jul 2nd, 2019 at 11:26am:
He votes for taxation. His vote for other people to commit aggression is not in itself aggression.


Isn't voting for aggression the same as conspiracy to commit aggression and thus aggression itself?

What's the difference between a mob boss ordering a hit and a committee of mob bosses voting to order a hit (besides the number of mob bosses involved,...unless that mattered)?

If taxation is indeed a form of aggression, wouldn't voting for taxation be a form of aggression as well (I had to play the Devil's devil's advocate there for a minute)?

[reaches down and pulls knife from foot]  Cry


The Opposition wrote on Jul 2nd, 2019 at 11:26am:
Libertarianism allows voting for taxation.


This may be true if the taxes take place in a voluntary community and everyone agrees to it, or if you are using a money system that someone else (the Feds?) created and they stipulate that you must return a portion of any money you acquire within that system, which is the point I'm trying to get across.

Libertarianism is not democracy, and most libertarians that I know of would choose liberty over majority rule if given such choice.

The Opposition wrote on Jul 2nd, 2019 at 11:26am:
Libertarianism allows advocacy of taxation.


Libertarianism allows for advocacy of torture, murder and rape under freedom of speech. When such advocacy crosses into incitememnt territory and thus becomes aggression is hard to determine.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Online

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 47918
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Income tax and "theft"
Reply #53 - Jul 3rd, 2019 at 6:11am
Print Post  
Dr.Entropy wrote on Jul 3rd, 2019 at 12:20am:
But not everything I acquired was created by the government. Federally created money is (tautologically, of course).


The Federal Reserve Bank crates our money. Real money isn't created, it's coined, or minted if you prefer.

The fact that you receive FRNs in an equal exchange for your labor has nothing to do with the Fed or the federal government. FRNs are a widely accepted (though seriously flawed) store of value. You could get cowrie shells in exchange for your labor, and if they were widely accepted, use them to exchange for food.
  

"Free hate speech"
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Online

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 47918
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Income tax and "theft"
Reply #54 - Jul 3rd, 2019 at 6:16am
Print Post  
Dr.Entropy wrote on Jul 3rd, 2019 at 12:20am:
So the government is not involved in any way when you acquire money for your labor or spend money for food and has no right to collect compensation for the creation and maintenance of the money system you are using, is that correct?

Perhaps credit card companies should be charged with extortion for levying service fees for your use of your hard earned money whenever you use a credit card. How dare they!  Angry
Yes to the first. The federal government has been charged with the duty of providing us with stable money and the power to tax to support the Treasury Dept. and any mints necessary to coin money for us. They already make money by coining/printing money.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/seigniorage

Banks provide credit cards as a service. They make money on the service, otherwise they wouldn't provide it. Banks aren't governments, governments aren't banks.

Edit: Perhaps things would be more clear to you if you thought of money as our money rather than the government's money that they just let us use...

Governments don't have money.

Even if they sell or lease "public" land, that's our land and the revenue it creates belongs to the people, not the government. Same with revenue collected through taxation, it's not the government's money, it's our money, collected to use for purposes we have approved.

Imagining that the government should charge us for the use of our money is nonsensical.
« Last Edit: Jul 3rd, 2019 at 7:20am by Jeff »  

"Free hate speech"
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Online

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 47918
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Income tax and "theft"
Reply #55 - Jul 3rd, 2019 at 6:21am
Print Post  
Dr.Entropy wrote on Jul 3rd, 2019 at 12:20am:
But let's say you pay a next door neighbor $5 to mow your lawn. The IRS could rightfully ignore the subjective value of your neighbor's labor as that is not something the federal government created. All the IRS could "see" is the $5 that your neighbor acquired as that involves the use of the federal money system and thus should be taxed accordingly.
So I'll find someone who will mow my lawn in exchange for lunch.

Using money that we have told the government to create for our use is not at all like using a debit card from a private bank. The fact that we use the money created for our use does not somehow magically create taxable income. Five dollars worth of labor exchanged for $5 is simply an even trade.
  

"Free hate speech"
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Online

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 47918
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Income tax and "theft"
Reply #56 - Jul 3rd, 2019 at 6:26am
Print Post  
Dr.Entropy wrote on Jul 3rd, 2019 at 1:25am:
Isn't voting for aggression the same as conspiracy to commit aggression and thus aggression itself?

If we had a democratic form of government and you actually got to vote for "aggression", you might have a point, but we vote for representatives who may or may not enact or repeal laws you consider to be "aggression".

If our representatives enact laws that are outside their grant of legitimate powers, the lawbreaking is on them, not the people who voted for them.

In case you haven't noticed, elected officials rarely do what they say they will do when they are campaigning.
  

"Free hate speech"
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Online

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 47918
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Income tax and "theft"
Reply #57 - Jul 3rd, 2019 at 7:14am
Print Post  
Dr.Entropy wrote on Jul 3rd, 2019 at 1:25am:
Libertarianism allows for advocacy of torture, murder and rape under freedom of speech. When such advocacy crosses into incitememnt territory and thus becomes aggression is hard to determine.
Freedom of speech isn't just a libertarian thing...

Luckily, there are precedents that can be used to help judge when advocating for torture, murder and rape cross the line.

Keep a close eye on anyone you know who is advocating for torture, murder and rape. Shocked
  

"Free hate speech"
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
The Opposition
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 11312
Joined: Apr 30th, 2014
Re: Income tax and "theft"
Reply #58 - Jul 3rd, 2019 at 11:13am
Print Post  
Dr.Entropy wrote on Jul 3rd, 2019 at 1:25am:
Isn't voting for aggression the same as conspiracy to commit aggression and thus aggression itself?


Nope, because welfare queens are innocent. There was a whole thread about whether restrictions can be placed on their reproduction.

First I argued that if I were to vote for such a restriction, it would be self-defence, since I have every reasonable expectation that I'll have to support that baby.

That was shot down easily.

Next I argued that voting for aggression is a conspiracy to commit aggression, so welfare queens are not innocent.

That too was easily refuted. Welfare queens cannot have reproductive restrictions because that would be aggression against them.

Dr.Entropy wrote on Jul 3rd, 2019 at 1:25am:
What's the difference between a mob boss ordering a hit and a committee of mob bosses voting to order a hit (besides the number of mob bosses involved,...unless that mattered)?

If taxation is indeed a form of aggression, wouldn't voting for taxation be a form of aggression as well (I had to play the Devil's devil's advocate there for a minute)?


I argued this very thing myself. I was mistaken.

Jeff wrote on Jun 26th, 2019 at 7:04am:
The Opposition wrote on Jun 25th, 2019 at 9:11pm:
Believe it or not, this is why I believe in abortion: I should have been one. My mother didn't believe in it.

Indy has a point, though. You wouldn't dare eat a baby, even if the kill had been made by someone else.

You also said that hiring a hit man was aggression. Contracting for aggression is aggression.

Welfare queens are additionally involved in a conspiracy to commit aggression when they vote for it.

This is if you really believe redistribution is aggression, which all evidence is you don't.


I believe much of the government's revenue is collected illegally, and that handing it out to individuals and corporations is also illegal, so yes it's possible to say I think welfare is aggression, but it's aggression on the part of the government, which tells the people who receive welfare that they are entitled to it by law, which they are, even if the law is unconstitutional.


Dr.Entropy wrote on Jul 3rd, 2019 at 1:25am:
Libertarianism allows for advocacy of torture, murder and rape under freedom of speech. When such advocacy crosses into incitement territory and thus becomes aggression is hard to determine.


Based on what I've heard on this forum I would say never.

If you don't plunge in the knife, you aren't the murderer.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
The Opposition
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 11312
Joined: Apr 30th, 2014
Re: Income tax and "theft"
Reply #59 - Jul 3rd, 2019 at 11:24am
Print Post  
SkyChief wrote on Jul 2nd, 2019 at 10:46pm:
Jeff would be banished from Liberland as soon as he lobbied for Tax funded Public Schools.   

In a libertarian SeaSteading colony, they would put Jeff on a raft with 2 weeks provisions, wish him luck, and set him adrift.

Libertarians are very serious about zero taxation.


Those aren't libertarians. Those are libertarian+principlians. They believe in the NAP, and they believe in taking such actions so that aggression is minimised upon their citizens. Pure libertarians only believe in the NAP.

What I keep trying to get across to you is that every philosophy lays down some (usually explicit) rules and then allows selfish actions within the bounds of those rules.

Libertarianism lays down the NAP.

That's it.

Libertarianism is not actually about realisation of zero or even minimal aggression.

Libertarianism means do not commit aggression yourself.

You want to contract for aggression? Profit from aggression? Go crazy. Don't violate the NAP.

Jeff gets it. You don't.

If I'm wrong, why do libertarians oppose UBI? It would crash the system they supposedly hate. Why do they hate your guest visa plan? Why are they so hung up on that fifty bucks or whatever you want to charge being aggression?

Think about it.

Libertarianism is not unsuccessful.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 ... 4 5 [6] 7 8 
Send TopicPrint
 
Libertarian's ForumLibertarian's ForumFreedom Forum › Income tax and "theft"
Libertarian's Forum

Libertarian's Forum Information Rules, Agreement and Privacy Policy