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DontTread44
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Is libertarianism linked to Holocaust-denial?
Jul 1st, 2019 at 7:27pm
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I don't know whether I can continue to call myself a libertarian or pursue studying Austrian economics at this point.

This is all because of three men: Harry Elmer Barnes, Gary North and James J. Martin. They all have something in common. They deny that 6 million Jews were executed in Nazi Germany. They are Holocaust deniers. They each also have a profile on the Mises Institute website. According to the Elmer Barnes profile, prominent Austrian economist Murray Rothbard was heavily influenced by him, and he eulogized him after his passing. If Barnes is where Rothbard gets his history, I don't think I can read any Rothbard any further.

If you think I'm being harsh, here's a quote from Gary North from 1976:
Quote:
Probably the most far-out materials on World War II revisionism have been the seemingly scholarly studies of the supposed execution of 6 million Jews by Hitler. The anonymous author of The Myth of the Six Million (whose writing style and use of footnotes internal to the text resembles Hoggan's The Myth of the ",New History" to a remarkable extent) has presented a solid case against the Establishment's favorite horror story-the supposed moral justification for our entry into the War.


A quote from Harry Elmer Barnes:
Quote:
Even if one were to accept the most extreme and exaggerated indictment of Hitler and the National Socialists for their activities after 1939 made by anybody fit to remain outside a mental hospital, it is most alarmingly easy to demonstrate that the atrocities of the Allies in the same period were more numerous as to victims and were carried out for the most part by methods more brutal and painful then that alleged extermination in gas ovens.


And a quote from James J. Martin:
Quote:
I don't believe that the evidence of a planned extermination of the entire Jewish population of Europe is holding up.


This is so ugly. It sickens me. It threatens everything I've learned about libertarianism and undermines the principles I believe in.
  
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Little Biq Man
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Re: Is libertarianism linked to Holocaust-denial?
Reply #1 - Jul 1st, 2019 at 7:42pm
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DontTread44 wrote on Jul 1st, 2019 at 7:27pm:
I don't know whether I can continue to call myself a libertarian or pursue studying Austrian economics at this point.

This is all because of three men: Harry Elmer Barnes, Gary North and James J. Martin. They all have something in common. They deny that 6 million Jews were executed in Nazi Germany. They are Holocaust deniers. They each also have a profile on the Mises Institute website. According to the Elmer Barnes profile, prominent Austrian economist Murray Rothbard was heavily influenced by him, and he eulogized him after his passing. If Barnes is where Rothbard gets his history, I don't think I can read any Rothbard any further.

If you think I'm being harsh, here's a quote from Gary North from 1976:

A quote from Harry Elmer Barnes:

And a quote from James J. Martin:

This is so ugly. It sickens me. It threatens everything I've learned about libertarianism and undermines the principles I believe in.


One has little to do with the other.  I'm a skeptic of Darwinian evolution.  I'm also a skeptic of the idea of human activity causing global warming.  I believe that Obama was born in Hawaii, but I think that there is something fishy about his birth certificate.

Am I a conspiracy theorist?  I would submit that to not be a conspiracy theorist is to accept that everything we are taught as conventional wisdom is true and that no one should question the orthodoxy.

None of that has anything to do with the libertarian truisms that least government is best government, that a collective has no more rights than each of its individuals, and that taxation is theft.

In the market place of ideas, an idea such as that the Holocaust wasn't real will lose every time.  Let putrid ideas be disinfected by sunlight, not hidden in the dark to fester.  Giving up your libertarian principles because they allow people to deny the holocaust invites people to give up the idea of individual liberties because they allow people to say that taxation is theft.

BTW, there is one flaw in the story of the Holocaust:  The estimate of six million came from subtracting the number of Jews left after the war from the number of Jews alive before the war.  This math assumes that no Jews were killed by allied bombing, etc. 

Regardless, there is little doubt that during WWII, the statists ran death camps in Germany, the Soviet Union and the United States.  The existence of that little doubt should not be enough to force you to give up on the idea of the individual.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Is libertarianism linked to Holocaust-denial?
Reply #2 - Jul 1st, 2019 at 7:59pm
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DontTread44 wrote on Jul 1st, 2019 at 7:27pm:
I don't know whether I can continue to call myself a libertarian or pursue studying Austrian economics at this point.

Instead of weeping and wailing about it, just give it up!

Study something else and call yourself something different. Smiley
  

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SkyChief
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Re: Is libertarianism linked to Holocaust-denial?
Reply #3 - Jul 1st, 2019 at 8:32pm
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Jeff wrote on Jul 1st, 2019 at 7:59pm:
Instead of weeping and wailing about it, just give it up!

Study something else and call yourself something different. Smiley

Allow me to interpret:

PAY YOUR GODDAM TAXES.  WE HAVE ESTABLISHED THE LEGAL RIGHT TO STEAL THEM FROM YOU.

So, How did I do Jeff?

Smiley
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Is libertarianism linked to Holocaust-denial?
Reply #4 - Jul 1st, 2019 at 9:01pm
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DontTread44 wrote on Jul 1st, 2019 at 7:27pm:
This is all because of three men: Harry Elmer Barnes, Gary North and James J. Martin. They all have something in common. They deny that 6 million Jews were executed in Nazi Germany. They are Holocaust deniers. They each also have a profile on the Mises Institute website.


Admittedly Mises should take down their profiles.

I don't know why it should sicken you that libertarianism attracts all kinds, though.

Holocaust deniers are a bunch of desperate racists looking to be free of their genetic guilt, so they'll grasp any straw with which to absolve themselves.

From the worst of the worst, to the best of the best, look within and you will find people who want to be free of something.

The free market will give the Holocaust deniers exactly what they deserve, so I don't see why you should worry that they're exalting an ideology that will crush them.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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DontTread44
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Re: Is libertarianism linked to Holocaust-denial?
Reply #5 - Jul 1st, 2019 at 9:55pm
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The Opposition wrote on Jul 1st, 2019 at 9:01pm:
Admittedly Mises should take down their profiles.

I don't know why it should sicken you that libertarianism attracts all kinds, though.

Holocaust deniers are a bunch of desperate racists looking to be free of their genetic guilt, so they'll grasp any straw with which to absolve themselves.

From the worst of the worst, to the best of the best, look within and you will find people who want to be free of something.

The free market will give the Holocaust deniers exactly what they deserve, so I don't see why you should worry that they're exalting an ideology that will crush them.


They have profiles on antiwar.com, too. I'm literally sick. I don't know what to think anymore. It's not about, "oh, there are libertarians of all stripes", or, "you can't agree with what every libertarian has said", these men are the ROOTS of libertarianism and revisionism.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Is libertarianism linked to Holocaust-denial?
Reply #6 - Jul 1st, 2019 at 10:05pm
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DontTread44 wrote on Jul 1st, 2019 at 9:55pm:
They have profiles on antiwar.com, too. I'm literally sick. I don't know what to think anymore. It's not about, "oh, there are libertarians of all stripes", or, "you can't agree with what every libertarian has said", these men are the ROOTS of libertarianism and revisionism.


You know, it is possible for someone to be correct about one thing and incorrect about another.

If Hitler had invented the toothbrush, would you refuse to use it?

I do not care if the literal Devil, Lucifer himself came up with libertarianism. I believe it is absolutely right in every way.

This is because my belief comes from examining the philosophy itself, not the character of those who contributed to it.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: Is libertarianism linked to Holocaust-denial?
Reply #7 - Jul 2nd, 2019 at 7:09am
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SkyChief wrote on Jul 1st, 2019 at 8:32pm:
Allow me to interpret:

PAY YOUR GODDAM TAXES.  WE HAVE ESTABLISHED THE LEGAL RIGHT TO STEAL THEM FROM YOU.

So, How did I do Jeff?

Smiley
So you deny the Holocaust ever happened?
  

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Jeff
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Re: Is libertarianism linked to Holocaust-denial?
Reply #8 - Jul 2nd, 2019 at 7:11am
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DontTread44 wrote on Jul 1st, 2019 at 9:55pm:
...these men are the ROOTS of libertarianism and revisionism.
They might be at the root of some revisionism, but they aren't at the root of libertarianism.
  

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SkyChief
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Re: Is libertarianism linked to Holocaust-denial?
Reply #9 - Jul 2nd, 2019 at 11:53am
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Jeff wrote on Jul 2nd, 2019 at 7:09am:
So you deny the Holocaust ever happened?

I think making the connection between liberarianism and holocaust denial is despicable.

It's cheap beyond description, really.
  
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