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SkyChief
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When A Citizen Fears His/Her Government
Jul 3rd, 2019 at 12:56pm
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What are some good ways for government to strike fear into the people?

• Make it as difficult as possible for a person to have a firearm.  Call it "Gun Control" to make it sound appealing to those who don't know (or care) what the words "shall not be infringed" means.

• Regulations on everything. 

• Oppressive Taxation. . . . Tax wages and salaries.  TAX EVERYTHING.  TAX EVERYBODY.  (Except government workers.  *snicker*)

• Suppress Free Speech.   Make everything "Hate Speech", and punishable by fines and/or imprisonment.

• Spy on the Citizens.   Pass Laws which violate to the 4th Amendment.   Give it a "catchy" name - something that sounds appealing. . .  Call it the PATRIOT Act.   Give government the power to surveil any citizen, at any time, for any reason.  That's scary.

• Expand the powers of government.  Nobody fears a government more than a MASSIVE, UBER POWERFUL government.   Continually transfer power from the People to the government.

• Marginalize those pesky Libertarians.   Call them "anarchists" so people will be suspicious of them.

• Random inspections/audits by government.   Anywhere, anytime.   Keep the people guessing about government's next move!

“When government fears the people, there is liberty. When people fear the government, there is tyranny.”  - Thomas Jefferson
  
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The Opposition
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Re: When A Citizen Fears His/Her Government
Reply #1 - Jul 3rd, 2019 at 9:19pm
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None of that bothers me. I understand it's all very wrong and in violation of your rights, but it just doesn't bother me.

As long as I have enough money left to live, I can part with taxes. And I'm not breaking the law, so I don't mind surveillance. Jeff thinks I shouldn't have a gun anyway.

I would put up with all that and more to be equal - to have the same rights as others.

...But... the government can't do that.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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SkyChief
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Re: When A Citizen Fears His/Her Government
Reply #2 - Jul 4th, 2019 at 3:13am
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The Opposition wrote on Jul 3rd, 2019 at 9:19pm:
None of that bothers me. I understand it's all very wrong and in violation of your rights, but it just doesn't bother me.


The Opposition wrote on Jul 3rd, 2019 at 9:19pm:
As long as I have enough money left to live, I can part with taxes.
There must be some level of taxation where you will say enough is enough.

"As long as you enough money left to live" is a very grey area.  Are you willing to lower your standard of living so others can benefit from the wealth taken from you?   If so, how much?   Would you be willing to share your home with other families?     You could live very cheaply if you would be willing to do that.

The Opposition wrote on Jul 3rd, 2019 at 9:19pm:
And I'm not breaking the law, so I don't mind surveillance.
You seem to be indifferent about the prospects of a totalitarian government.  Many others seem to feel the same way.   That's a bit disturbing.  Undecided
  
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The Opposition
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Re: When A Citizen Fears His/Her Government
Reply #3 - Jul 4th, 2019 at 12:19pm
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SkyChief wrote on Jul 4th, 2019 at 3:13am:
There must be some level of taxation where you will say enough is enough.


When I was in college, I was eating out of trash cans and living with a family that was constantly drinking and drugging and wanted me dead.

If I made money tutoring, they usually took it away, then said I actually owed them more. This was difficult for me as I was thirteen and couldn't get more. I can't picture the government doing that. If they want more, they'll take more, and they'll never insist that I owe more than I can give.

So no, not really. I know how to live with nothing.

Again, I understand that redistribution is objectively wrong. The only thing that bothers me about it, even a little, is how condescending the people on the receiving end seem to be, when they have so much more disposable income. They act like I have no right to exist, when I would never think that way about them.

Let them swap their grocery basket with mine, for just one week, and I'll be completely happy with the status quo.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Dr.Entropy
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Re: When A Citizen Fears His/Her Government
Reply #4 - Jul 4th, 2019 at 7:54pm
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The Opposition wrote on Jul 3rd, 2019 at 9:19pm:
None of that bothers me. I understand it's all very wrong and in violation of your rights, but it just doesn't bother me.


It should bother most sentient lifeforms.

The Opposition wrote on Jul 3rd, 2019 at 9:19pm:
As long as I have enough money left to live, I can part with taxes.


So you have no problem having the government tax you down to basic sustenance with no resources left to gain any leverage in society while the politicians have all the resources needed to bend society to their will, is that right?

The Opposition wrote on Jul 3rd, 2019 at 9:19pm:
And I'm not breaking the law, so I don't mind surveillance.


This completely misses the point. Mass surveillance makes everyone vulnerable.

Surveillance is a tool of domination and control. If someone collects information about you without your consent, such information can be used to blackmail, manipulate, or even kill you.

Let's say a terrorist group that doesn't like what you said about their organization decides to kill you. If they could find your location by hacking into your smart phone or hacking into a municipal video surveillance system with smart tracking and facial recognition (implemented from the terrorists end), they could potentially kill you by remote by, say, strapping a pipe bomb to a drone they can find at their local hobby store (or on the black market if necessary) and then sending it to your location with real time course correction to intercept you.

Almost every species of prey animal uses privacy by one means or another to defend themselves against predators (see crypsis).
Privacy also seems to be effective on the battlefield (see stealth).

The point is that privacy is a necessary means of self defense not only against a hostile government, but by other hostile agents as well. Even if you could trust the government, there is no reason to believe that the information the government collects won't fall into the wrong hand especially with the FOIA. By collecting such vast amounts of information, the government is in fact making itself a liability.

And, yes, this means that if we allow privacy, criminals and terrorists can use said privacy to defend themselves against law enforcement, but they can do the same thing with their freedom as well. This doesn't imply that everyone's freedom must be done away with just because criminals might abuse it. Should we ban flashlights, bulletproof vests, automobiles, and cellphones? Criminals use those things to commit crime as well.

The Opposition wrote on Jul 3rd, 2019 at 9:19pm:
I would put up with all that and more to be equal - to have the same rights as others.


Giving government godlike powers is not a safe way to promote equality.

The Opposition wrote on Jul 3rd, 2019 at 9:19pm:
...But... the government can't do that.


If that's the case then I call it a good thing.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: When A Citizen Fears His/Her Government
Reply #5 - Jul 5th, 2019 at 3:18pm
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Dr.Entropy wrote on Jul 4th, 2019 at 7:54pm:
It should bother most sentient lifeforms.


It just doesn't. I wish I could bring myself to care more, because I feel like I could "get" libertarianism more if I did.

But I just don't care that much.

Dr.Entropy wrote on Jul 4th, 2019 at 7:54pm:
So you have no problem having the government tax you down to basic sustenance with no resources left to gain any leverage in society while the politicians have all the resources needed to bend society to their will, is that right?


Nope. I care about whether I get fired. That can take away my livelihood. That can starve me. If the government starves me, they lose a cash cow, so I feel like they won't.

Dr.Entropy wrote on Jul 4th, 2019 at 7:54pm:
This completely misses the point. Mass surveillance makes everyone vulnerable.

Surveillance is a tool of domination and control. If someone collects information about you without your consent, such information can be used to blackmail, manipulate, or even kill you.

Let's say a terrorist group that doesn't like what you said about their organization decides to kill you. If they could find your location by hacking into your smart phone or hacking into a municipal video surveillance system with smart tracking and facial recognition (implemented from the terrorists end), they could potentially kill you by remote by, say, strapping a pipe bomb to a drone they can find at their local hobby store (or on the black market if necessary) and then sending it to your location with real time course correction to intercept you.

Almost every species of prey animal uses privacy by one means or another to defend themselves against predators (see crypsis).
Privacy also seems to be effective on the battlefield (see stealth).

The point is that privacy is a necessary means of self defense not only against a hostile government, but by other hostile agents as well. Even if you could trust the government, there is no reason to believe that the information the government collects won't fall into the wrong hand especially with the FOIA. By collecting such vast amounts of information, the government is in fact making itself a liability.

And, yes, this means that if we allow privacy, criminals and terrorists can use said privacy to defend themselves against law enforcement, but they can do the same thing with their freedom as well. This doesn't imply that everyone's freedom must be done away with just because criminals might abuse it. Should we ban flashlights, bulletproof vests, automobiles, and cellphones? Criminals use those things to commit crime as well.


Giving government godlike powers is not a safe way to promote equality.


I want to be watched. I have cameras in my own house and yard for my protection. I don't think some terrorist group is going to bomb me. I think people are going to call the police on me and say I did a bunch of stuff I didn't do. My camera have saved me already.

I understand I'm not entitled to be watched for free, though, so I pay for it myself.

I also understand that criminals and noncriminals alike are owed privacy.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Dr.Entropy
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Re: When A Citizen Fears His/Her Government
Reply #6 - Jul 8th, 2019 at 3:35am
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The Opposition wrote on Jul 5th, 2019 at 3:18pm:
I want to be watched.


I do not. People tend to be judgmental, and I do not want to be watched or recorded by the most authoritarian control freak out there who can have access to any footage of me and enforce their will upon me, especially the religious authoritarians.

Being under surveillance makes me feel like someone's pointing a gun at me. Given the the kind of weaponry that now exists, that might be a very appropriate feeling to have.

The Opposition wrote on Jul 5th, 2019 at 3:18pm:
I have cameras in my own house and yard for my protection. I don't think some terrorist group is going to bomb me. I think people are going to call the police on me and say I did a bunch of stuff I didn't do. My camera have saved me already.


The field of view of your cameras do not point at other people's property or the street, do they? If they are then I have to take objection to them. Whether you record yourself is your business but I do not consider recording others without either their consent or justification based on balancing privacy with other liberties to be ethical. I consider it an act of domination (It allows you to record others without them being able to record you for one) and an invasion of other people's privacy. If you cannot be seen by other persons then it's only fair you can't see them.


The Opposition wrote on Jul 5th, 2019 at 3:18pm:
I understand I'm not entitled to be watched for free, though, so I pay for it myself.


Then perhaps you could say that other people didn't pay for your cameras and their operation, so don't record them.


The Opposition wrote on Jul 5th, 2019 at 3:18pm:
I also understand that criminals and noncriminals alike are owed privacy.


This would be another reason not to record them.
  
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Re: When A Citizen Fears His/Her Government
Reply #7 - Jul 8th, 2019 at 4:27am
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The Opposition wrote on Jul 3rd, 2019 at 9:19pm:
None of that bothers me. I understand it's all very wrong and in violation of your rights, but it just doesn't bother me.

As long as I have enough money left to live, I can part with taxes. And I'm not breaking the law, so I don't mind surveillance. Jeff thinks I shouldn't have a gun anyway.

I would put up with all that and more to be equal - to have the same rights as others.

...But... the government can't do that.


This is a joke, right?  You don't want rights but you want equality?  How are you less equal than who?  So you are ok living in prison if every prisoner has the equal right to F you in the ass? 

And really, what would happen if the Central bank collapses and your money becomes worthless?  It has happened many times before and in America too.  Or do you prefer fiat bills of credit?

I appreciate intelligent trolling since it can be thought-provoking and damn funny but this is pretty bad.  Does the communist party send their agents here?
  
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yamcha
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Re: When A Citizen Fears His/Her Government
Reply #8 - Jul 8th, 2019 at 4:50am
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What are some good ways for government to strike fear into the people?

• Make it as difficult as possible for a person to have a firearm.  Call it "Gun Control" to make it sound appealing to those who don't know (or care) what the words "shall not be infringed" means.
[I have never owned a gun nor have I ever even fired one nor do I ever have any intention to until they decide to get rid of the 2nd.  Then I will get as many as I can through illegal means.

• Regulations on everything. 
[I can't think of many regulations I would support besides certification for airline pilots and medical doctors.]

• Oppressive Taxation. . . . Tax wages and salaries.  TAX EVERYTHING.  TAX EVERYBODY.  (Except government workers.  *snicker*)
[I don't believe in any kind of taxes whatsoever but if there must be one then let it be a non-progressive flat tax where you pay the same rate where you make a dollar or a billion.]

• Suppress Free Speech.   Make everything "Hate Speech", and punishable by fines and/or imprisonment.
[Hate Speach is Free Speech!  In fact, I HATE Free Speech!]

• Spy on the Citizens.   Pass Laws which violate to the 4th Amendment.   Give it a "catchy" name - something that sounds appealing. . .  Call it the PATRIOT Act.   Give government the power to surveil any citizen, at any time, for any reason.  That's scary.
[This is probably the worse. They have nanotechnology now for surveillance that cannot be detected by any devices since it is on the molecular level.   Police society.  I want to masturbate in peace please!]

• Expand the powers of government.  Nobody fears a government more than a MASSIVE, UBER POWERFUL government.   Continually transfer power from the People to the government.
[Time to apply for a government job!]

• Marginalize those pesky Libertarians.   Call them "anarchists" so people will be suspicious of them.
[Calling them anarchists is not that bad since it does make some people curious about why.  The worse marginalization is telling others that Libertarians and their ideas are pretty good but they will never have a chance to get elected.  I think this is the main reason why people don't even bother looking into Libertarianism.]

• Random inspections/audits by government.   Anywhere, anytime.   Keep the people guessing about government's next move!

[Oh! golly I'm sorry bout that! Theys some wolves and other pesky critters that come round here some of the times.  Y'all should have called to say you was coming!]
“When government fears the people, there is liberty. When people fear the government, there is tyranny.”  - Thomas Jefferson
  
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The Opposition
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Re: When A Citizen Fears His/Her Government
Reply #9 - Jul 8th, 2019 at 11:17am
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yamcha wrote on Jul 8th, 2019 at 4:27am:
This is a joke, right?  You don't want rights but you want equality?  How are you less equal than who?


Since I have no rights, I am not equal to anyone who does have rights.

merkelstan wrote on Feb 28th, 2017 at 11:15pm:
Rothbard's criteria makes more sense, because not only does the entity have to demonstrate conscious thought, it needs to understand the concept of rights and demand them for itself.

Amusingly, The Opposition would fail that test.  I still can't get-over what a mental trainwreck his (her?) "concept" of rights was.


Jeff wrote on Feb 24th, 2018 at 7:49am:
You have no more rights than an animal, because your understanding of rights is at the level of a predatory animal.


I've been offered rights if I say I'm Human, but I refuse, because if it comes from something like the colour of my skin, or even my planet of origin, that's not rights to me.

The only rights I want are those that come from my sentience and ability to reason, and my respect for the rights of others.

yamcha wrote on Jul 8th, 2019 at 4:27am:
So you are ok living in prison if every prisoner has the equal right to F you in the ass? 


Dying of AIDS is one of the worst things I consider could happen to me.

But yes. I'd rather live in rape world where everyone has an equal right to rape everyone else than live in a reasonably comfortable world without equal rights.

I care more about equality than I do about the conditions I live in.

yamcha wrote on Jul 8th, 2019 at 4:27am:
Does the communist party send their agents here?


I'm not a communist. In fact, I accept that libertarianism is objectively correct, even if it means I have no rights and others do.

I'm just stating my personal preferences. For me, equal rights tops the list.

Some people prefer to have a lot of money but still understand they can't just steal it.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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