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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Your Libertarian Paradise... Turns Out Socialist? (Read 694 times)
The Opposition
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Your Libertarian Paradise... Turns Out Socialist?
Jul 6th, 2019 at 1:49pm
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Let's say for the sake of a thought experiment that you get exactly what you want for the country. Its every policy immediately becomes your concept of perfectly libertarian, and it actually works.

Yes, you'd have to pull a pretty big rabbit out of a hat for that, so let's go with this one.



...It's a thought experiment for crying out loud. But he's actually a nice-guy genie, so he's not twisting your wish. He's going all-out to actually give you what you want.

But there's one tiny little problem:

Genie can't violate free will.

Laws have been changed. Policy has been changed. History has been rewritten if necessary. Let's say all of that bad shit with reinterpretation of the Constitution never happened, or at least that nobody remembers it.

...But the people are still the same, and they want others to be forced to share.

So how do they force people to share in a 100% libertarian world? Well we know the Left has money, so they'll just enforce it with social sanctions.

They do this already. Successfully.

If you don't tow the line, or if you step out of it, you'll lose your job. They can make it very difficult for your employer to keep you, and they can do it without one whit of government interference, just like they did to Nick Sandmann.

The new way becomes socialism by ostracism: Share, or lose your job.

This is not incredible or fanciful. It's completely understandable to every last one of you that someone who does something awful - like letting a baby die in the street - gets ostracised rather than receiving any real punishment. Ostracism is the solution libertarians actually tout for assholish behaviour that doesn't rise to the level of aggression.

Here's the problem:

90% of your population thinks not being a goddamn socialist is being an asshole.

The populace and its irrational whims get to choose when to ostracise. (And this probably seemed completely reasonable to you until just now.)

You will lose your &%$#ing job because you don't "voluntarily" give to welfare queens.

You're a business owner, you say? This won't affect you? People will boycott you, and no one will dare violate the boycott, or they will lose their jobs.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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SkyChief
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Re: Your Libertarian Paradise... Turns Out Socialist?
Reply #1 - Jul 6th, 2019 at 2:34pm
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I've stated many times on this forum that libertarianism only works in small groups of libertarians.

The larger the group, the higher the likelihood that dissenters will crawl out of the woodwork and demand taxes and wealth redistribution.

As there are 330 Million (+) people in the country, and more than half of them favor some level of socialist policy.   Libertarian policy couldn't even survive one week.

The blue "nice-guy genie" can't give us what we want - not with this many people.

"There is no worse tyranny than to force a man to pay for what he does not want merely because you think it would be good for him."  -  Robert A. Heinlein
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Your Libertarian Paradise... Turns Out Socialist?
Reply #2 - Jul 6th, 2019 at 3:37pm
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SkyChief wrote on Jul 6th, 2019 at 2:34pm:
The blue "nice-guy genie" can't give us what we want - not with this many people.


That's just my point.

I'm not even saying I think people will institute socialism.

Even if they're somehow prevented, even if they're completely bound to live under libertarian policy, they will use libertarian policy, work within it, to make the world effectively socialist.

In other words, I don't think you have objections to the government.

They're not the relevant factor here. Take away the government, change it, whatever...

...you still have to contend with the socialist people.

The only way you can live how you ultimately desire, is to live alongside other people who genuinely want others to be allowed to keep their things... people who want others to be able to speak freely regardless of whether they disagree.

That's not called a libertarian. A libertarian is focused on the letter of the Non-Aggression Principle. A libertarian exalts private companies that work within their rights to stamp out opposing speech. A libertarian delights in reporting people for whatever he can, to get people banned from private forums if they disagree with the libertarian.

In other words, it's all about winning. Win however you can, just don't punch anybody.

The kind of person who wants you to be able to speak freely and keep your own things... the kind of person who wouldn't take away your stuff and your speech and your right to have your own opinions, even if they could, using only private property rights... there's no name for that.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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SkyChief
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Re: Your Libertarian Paradise... Turns Out Socialist?
Reply #3 - Jul 6th, 2019 at 4:56pm
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The Opposition wrote on Jul 6th, 2019 at 3:37pm:
Even if they're somehow prevented, even if they're completely bound to live under libertarian policy, they will use libertarian policy, work within it, to make the world effectively socialist.
agreed.

Quote:
...you still have to contend with the socialist people.

Yep.          can't live with 'em . . . .  can't shoot 'em.  (jk)

Quote:
The kind of person who wants you to be able to speak freely and keep your own things... the kind of person who wouldn't take away your stuff and your speech and your right to have your own opinions, even if they could, using only private property rights... there's no name for that.

I think most libertarians would aspire to these things.

“Live and let live” is the Libertarian’s motto.

(Originally, our motto was  "There ain't no such thing as a free lunch.", but that was perceived as being mean-spirited by leftists.    Roll Eyes)
  
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Little Biq Man
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Re: Your Libertarian Paradise... Turns Out Socialist?
Reply #4 - Jul 6th, 2019 at 5:18pm
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If there is one lesson that we should have learned from our eighteen-year-so-far middle east misadventure, it is that you really cannot force freedom on people.  When I was a neocon, I did not believe that myself.  I accused people who said Iranians and Iraqis don't want to be free of being racists.

Sad truth is that not nearly enough people in Muslim countries want to do anything else but submit to Islam and not nearly enough people in "capitalist" countries want to do anything but submit to statism.

Hell, we have tax-and-spenders right here on the libertariansforum.com.  Not here to debate against libertarianism, but to claim that tax-and-spending is libertarian. 

It may be a flaw that evolved into us as a species.  Or more correctly, never evolved out of us.  When our ancestors were apelike creatures living in herds or whatever, there was always an alpha and the others followed.  I can easily picture the Jeffs of the world right at home in such a system, giving half their bananas to the alpha and thanking him for taking it.   

When we were tribal, the leader of the tribe took the best of the spoils.  When we learned agriculture, we missed a great chance to evolve into freedom.  Maybe we did enjoy brief periods of freedom, prosperity and trade, but we didn't defend that freedom against the still tribal hunter-gathering people who were more skilled in the use of weapons and led by the most ruthless among them.

Random pillaging evolved into taxation-in-exchange-for-safety (safety from the taxers, of course) and the Jeffs of the world happily plowed all day and were grateful to be allowed to keep enough to barely avoid starvation.

As Skychief says better than I, libertarianism will have to start with small groups.  Problem is where such a group could be located, the entire livable surface of the earth already under statist systems.
  
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SkyChief
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Re: Your Libertarian Paradise... Turns Out Socialist?
Reply #5 - Jul 6th, 2019 at 8:26pm
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Little Biq Man wrote on Jul 6th, 2019 at 5:18pm:
... libertarianism will have to start with small groups.  Problem is where such a group could be located, the entire livable surface of the earth already under statist systems.

Offshore SeaSteading.

Floating modular platforms that can be joined together to allow for expansion.   

12 miles off the coast in International waters to ensure there is no influence or intervention by a hostile country.

No taxes.   No redistribution.    No Prisons.  No jails.   Criminals and socialists will be banished.   

Only freedom & liberty for all.        Oh. . . . and every house has an ocean view!!    Smiley Smiley

  
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Little Biq Man
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Re: Your Libertarian Paradise... Turns Out Socialist?
Reply #6 - Jul 7th, 2019 at 11:39am
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I like that idea, Chief.  I really do.

But what would be the economic basis for such a seastead?

  
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SkyChief
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Re: Your Libertarian Paradise... Turns Out Socialist?
Reply #7 - Jul 7th, 2019 at 11:56am
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Little Biq Man wrote on Jul 7th, 2019 at 11:39am:
I like that idea, Chief.  I really do.

But what would be the economic basis for such a seastead?


A Seasteading property will be uber-expensive.  These properties will be on par (price-wise) with apartments in Manhattan or Paris -  in the millions, for sure.    These will be the havens for only the wealthiest libertarians (in the beginning).

As time goes on, the price of Seastead properties should come down, and us regular folks will be able to buy.

The Seastead complex will be located 12 miles (or more) offshore, so naturally they will require the services that any terra-firma town would need.  Stores,  A nice seafood restaurant,  Bait shop,  etc..

And of course a marina for pleasure craft. And a heli-pad.   

There will be many economic opportunities in a Seastead community!    

You'll be able to deep-sea fish from your own back yard!   Imagine that!  Grin 
  
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Little Biq Man
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Re: Your Libertarian Paradise... Turns Out Socialist?
Reply #8 - Jul 7th, 2019 at 8:15pm
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SkyChief wrote on Jul 7th, 2019 at 11:56am:
A Seasteading property will be uber-expensive.  These properties will be on par (price-wise) with apartments in Manhattan or Paris -  in the millions, for sure.    These will be the havens for only the wealthiest libertarians (in the beginning).

As time goes on, the price of Seastead properties should come down, and us regular folks will be able to buy.

The Seastead complex will be located 12 miles (or more) offshore, so naturally they will require the services that any terra-firma town would need.  Stores,  A nice seafood restaurant,  Bait shop,  etc..

And of course a marina for pleasure craft. And a heli-pad.   

There will be many economic opportunities in a Seastead community!    

You'll be able to deep-sea fish from your own back yard!   Imagine that!  Grin 


I like it.

My only nit pick would be that such a place is only sustainable because of its freedom in contrast to the rest of the statist world.  It's like Las Vegas which created the opportunity for several millionaires, I'm sure a few billionaires and tens of thousands of middle class jobs and careers merely be being legalizing one particular vice.

Actually, putting it that way, a place where all vices go unmolested by the thieving government functionaries and where business can trade as the market dictates should be even more of a magnet.

My concern is that there is no agriculture, so all food would have to be bought from the statists.  Soviet communism collapsed because it thought it could feed off of the corpse of the capitalism it killed but it did not last long enough to become self-sustaining.   It tried to keep its economy up by maintaining a permanent wartime economy, but it could not compete with free capitalist countries who had natural resources. 

Unless your seasteaders are able to fish or drill for oil, I'm not sure how the economy would naturally sustain itself.  How many of the other fifty states wold have to legalize gambling for Las Vegas' economic basis to disappear?  Maybe it would last, since LV has no natural economic basis either and so is more likely to concentrate on the gambling.

I fear you may be right, that libertarianism is only possible in small areas specifically set aside for it.  The Jeffs of the world may continue to outnumber us.*

Anyway, food for thought.  One could starve waiting for that from other posters.

*Not intending to be personally insulting to Jeff by bringing his name up.   He may be a very nice dude, so I don't mean Jeff the nice guy.  I mean Jeff as a symbol of everything that a libertarian prides themself on not being, that's all.




  
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yamcha
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Re: Your Libertarian Paradise... Turns Out Socialist?
Reply #9 - Jul 7th, 2019 at 10:49pm
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I don't think this is a good question.  There is no "our Libertarian Paradise". 
since in theory, in a Libertarian state, there is only your personal paradise or hell that is a reflection of what you created for yourself.

A better question which not only answers your question but can also fully be answered in actuality would be:

What if your Socialist paradise collapses and turns into a Capitalist free market?

No disrespect here.
  
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