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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Your Libertarian Paradise... Turns Out Socialist? (Read 701 times)
SkyChief
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Re: Your Libertarian Paradise... Turns Out Socialist?
Reply #10 - Jul 7th, 2019 at 11:23pm
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Little Biq Man wrote on Jul 7th, 2019 at 8:15pm:
I like it.
My concern is that there is no agriculture, so all food would have to be bought from the statists. 

Seafood will be cheap and plentiful on the Seastead.  Fresh produce will most likely be shipped from the mainland, and quite expensive.  It's a trade-off.  Landlubbers get cheap produce and pay through the nose for fresh Seafood.

Little Biq Man wrote on Jul 7th, 2019 at 8:15pm:
I fear you may be right, that libertarianism is only possible in small areas specifically set aside for it.  The Jeffs of the world may continue to outnumber us.
Sadly, there is no other way to keep freedom and liberty alive.  We must be isolated and maintain a strong political solidarity.   

Once the socialists infiltrate, they'll demand public schools, taxes, redistribution and before long, the whole thing comes crashing down.   Cry
  
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Little Big Man
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Re: Your Libertarian Paradise... Turns Out Socialist?
Reply #11 - Jul 9th, 2019 at 9:35am
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Chief,    Your idea is a sea based version of my idea for a Geo-Agrarian Libertarian society.   Briefly, it envisions a wealthy benefactor/profiteer buying not only the ownership of a large plot of land but also its sovereignty from a country such as Mexico.  Preferably, this land would be on the border with the U.S., giving it easy access to two foreign markets.

The owner/governor of the new nation would retain control of land which he or she could lease to freedom seekers, using the rent to fund government, such as it would be.  Currency would be based on commodities grown by the government on unleashed land.

That’s just the basics, it would be more complicated in practice as would anything.

This proposal was over-simplified by the less astute among us as “government owning all land,” so the pseudo-intellectuals of the board were constrained from a full understanding.
  

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The Opposition
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Re: Your Libertarian Paradise... Turns Out Socialist?
Reply #12 - Jul 9th, 2019 at 11:05am
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I don't see what's stopping the owner from behaving like a timeshare owner, raising the "maintenance fees" either as high as you can possibly pay, or higher, forcing you to find someone gullible enough to buy land with rent as high as if you didn't own it, or deed it back over to the owner.

I don't see what's stopping the owner from making laws on his own land, either. He will, if the laws increase the value of the property. You're basically talking about a Home Owners Association.

I think the basic problem here is that libertarians want to be as free as possible, but they don't get that a private business would take a rational assessment of the cost of that freedom and ultimately deny it.

You're only as free as you are now because the government enforces that freedom, giving you the right to, say, drink booze, even though the cost of letting people do that is astronomical in crime and property values. The government puts it foot down, uses its sovereignty, and insists upon that freedom. A private business would not do so, if it cost that business even a penny.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Little Big Man
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Re: Your Libertarian Paradise... Turns Out Socialist?
Reply #13 - Jul 9th, 2019 at 1:17pm
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The Opposition wrote on Jul 9th, 2019 at 11:05am:
I don't see what's stopping the owner from behaving like a timeshare owner, raising the "maintenance fees" either as high as you can possibly pay, or higher, forcing you to find someone gullible enough to buy land with rent as high as if you didn't own it, or deed it back over to the owner.


Why would we want to stop that?  Since “as high as you can possibly pay” means as high as the free market demand will support, that’s what the free market is.

Quote:
I don't see what's stopping the owner from making laws on his own land, either. He will, if the laws increase the value of the property. You're basically talking about a Home Owners Association.

I think the basic problem here is that libertarians want to be as free as possible, but they don't get that a private business would take a rational assessment of the cost of that freedom and ultimately deny it.


Why in the world would a rational business whose only product is freedom deny freedom to its customers?  The Coca-cola company has the power to deny coke to its drinkers or to raise prices as high as they are possibly willing to pay. 

Do they?


You're only as free as you are now because the government enforces that freedom, giving you the right to, say, drink booze, even though the cost of letting people do that is astronomical in crime and property values. The government puts it foot down, uses its sovereignty, and insists upon that freedom. A private business would not [/quote]

Government exists for the purpose of denying freedom and taking money.  Business has selfish goals, but not those goals.

  

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Jeff
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Re: Your Libertarian Paradise... Turns Out Socialist?
Reply #14 - Jul 9th, 2019 at 1:49pm
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The Opposition wrote on Jul 6th, 2019 at 1:49pm:
Let's say for the sake of a thought experiment that you get exactly what you want for the country. Its every policy immediately becomes your concept of perfectly libertarian, and it actually works.


But there's one tiny little problem:

Genie can't violate free will.

Laws have been changed. Policy has been changed. History has been rewritten if necessary.
What a crock of shit.
  

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Jeff
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Re: Your Libertarian Paradise... Turns Out Socialist?
Reply #15 - Jul 9th, 2019 at 1:55pm
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The Opposition wrote on Jul 6th, 2019 at 1:49pm:
...But the people are still the same, and they want others to be forced to share.

Citation needed. I don't believe people want others to be forced to share.

Anyway, sharing is voluntary.
  

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SkyChief
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Re: Your Libertarian Paradise... Turns Out Socialist?
Reply #16 - Jul 9th, 2019 at 2:18pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Jul 9th, 2019 at 9:35am:
Chief,    Your idea is a sea based version of my idea for a Geo-Agrarian Libertarian society.   Briefly, it envisions a wealthy benefactor/profiteer buying not only the ownership of a large plot of land but also its sovereignty from a country such as Mexico.  Preferably, this land would be on the border with the U.S., giving it easy access to two foreign markets.

The owner/governor of the new nation would retain control of land which he or she could lease to freedom seekers, using the rent to fund government, such as it would be.  Currency would be based on commodities grown by the government on unleashed land.

Your Geo-Agrarian Libertarian society is interesting, but fundamentally different from a SeaStead community in that the land is privately owned and then parcels are leased to the inhabitants.

With SeaSteading, each Home Module added to the platform has already been purchased and belongs to the inhabitant.  There will be an $80,000 fee to attach each new Home Module.

Also, your Geo-Agrarian Libertarian model requires sovereignty to be granted by the "host" country.

The SeaStead model is ipso facto a sovereign state as long as it remains in international waters.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Your Libertarian Paradise... Turns Out Socialist?
Reply #17 - Jul 9th, 2019 at 5:26pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Jul 9th, 2019 at 1:17pm:
Why in the world would a rational business whose only product is freedom deny freedom to its customers?
Because they didn't want to pay the price?

Freedom isn't cheap you know, certainly not free... Smiley
  

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Jeff
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Re: Your Libertarian Paradise... Turns Out Socialist?
Reply #18 - Jul 9th, 2019 at 5:27pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Jul 9th, 2019 at 1:17pm:
Why would we want to stop that?  Since “as high as you can possibly pay” means as high as the free market demand will support, that’s what the free market is.
You have FITH syndrome don't you?
Cry
  

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Re: Your Libertarian Paradise... Turns Out Socialist?
Reply #19 - Jul 9th, 2019 at 5:29pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Jul 9th, 2019 at 1:17pm:
You're only as free as you are now because the government enforces that freedom, giving you the right to, say, drink booze...
Yep, it's clear, FITH syndrome. Cry
  

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