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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Your Libertarian Paradise... Turns Out Socialist? (Read 1033 times)
Jeff
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Re: Your Libertarian Paradise... Turns Out Socialist?
Reply #20 - Jul 9th, 2019 at 5:33pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Jul 9th, 2019 at 1:17pm:
Government exists for the purpose of denying freedom and taking money.
You should add a qualifier like "bad" or "tyrannical"...

If you have a government like that, charge some people in it with the crime of denying our freedom and taking money and hang them. Publicly would be best. At least post a video on all the social media...

You won't have to hang too many I think...
  

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Re: Your Libertarian Paradise... Turns Out Socialist?
Reply #21 - Jul 9th, 2019 at 7:47pm
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SkyChief wrote on Jul 9th, 2019 at 2:18pm:
Your Geo-Agrarian Libertarian society is interesting, but fundamentally different from a SeaStead community in that the land is privately owned and then parcels are leased to the inhabitants.

With SeaSteading, each Home Module added to the platform has already been purchased and belongs to the inhabitant.  There will be an $80,000 fee to attach each new Home Module.

Also, your Geo-Agrarian Libertarian model requires sovereignty to be granted by the "host" country.

The SeaStead model is ipso facto a sovereign state as long as it remains in international waters.


I see what you are saying.  I fear you are too optimistic about the likelihood of powerful nations recognizing that sovereignty, or at least being willing to simply ignore SeaState. 

I would expect that one of the powerful nations will send an emissary on an armed vessel to warn the people of SeaState that an invasion is imminent, but fortunately preventable.  All SeaState need do is start paying the nation of __________ a tribute and __________ will promise to cancel prevent the planned invasion. 

Not only that, ________, seeing that SeaState has no strong police force, it will happily provide one, to safeguard the people of the protectorate sovereign nation.  Also to make sure everyone pays their fair share into the tribute fund so their “right not to be freeloaded on,” is enforced.
  

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Little Big Man
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Re: Your Libertarian Paradise... Turns Out Socialist?
Reply #22 - Jul 9th, 2019 at 7:49pm
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Jeff wrote on Jul 9th, 2019 at 5:33pm:
You should add a qualifier like "bad" or "tyrannical"...


Better yet, name some governments that do not deny freedom and take money and I will exclude them from that statement in the future.

Quote:
If you have a government like that, charge some people in it with the crime of denying our freedom and taking money and hang them. Publicly would be best. At least post a video on all the social media...

You won't have to hang too many I think...


A wonderful idea, except that only government has the legitimate power to charge and hand people.


  

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SkyChief
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Re: Your Libertarian Paradise... Turns Out Socialist?
Reply #23 - Jul 9th, 2019 at 8:19pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Jul 9th, 2019 at 7:47pm:
I see what you are saying.  I fear you are too optimistic about the likelihood of powerful nations recognizing that sovereignty, or at least being willing to simply ignore SeaState. 

I would expect that one of the powerful nations will send an emissary on an armed vessel to warn the people of SeaState that an invasion is imminent, but fortunately preventable.  All SeaState need do is start paying the nation of __________ a tribute and __________ will promise to cancel prevent the planned invasion. 

Not only that, ________, seeing that SeaState has no strong police force, it will happily provide one, to safeguard the people of the protectorate sovereign nation.  Also to make sure everyone pays their fair share into the tribute fund so their “right not to be freeloaded on,” is enforced.

I acknowledge and salute your cynicism.   Smiley

If the SeaState is close to US coastal waters, it can call on the US Navy to protect from pirates.   SeaState will be considered a vessel since it is anchored and free-floating.

The US Navy provides protection from pirates all over the world - they would jump at the opportunity to engage any pirates who try to shake down the SeaState micro-nation.   

I don't need to tell you how much the US likes to use the Military for intervention in foreign affairs!!     Grin    Grin
  
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Re: Your Libertarian Paradise... Turns Out Socialist?
Reply #24 - Jul 9th, 2019 at 9:09pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Jul 9th, 2019 at 1:17pm:
Why would we want to stop that?  Since “as high as you can possibly pay” means as high as the free market demand will support, that’s what the free market is.


That's fine, just understand you'll have more disposable income under tyranny. Under perfect freedom, it will all go to rent.

Oh, look, you made an extra hapenny today. I think I'll charge you an extra hapenny of rent today. You don't like it? Jump in the ocean.

Little Big Man wrote on Jul 9th, 2019 at 1:17pm:
Why in the world would a rational business whose only product is freedom deny freedom to its customers?  The Coca-cola company has the power to deny coke to its drinkers or to raise prices as high as they are possibly willing to pay. 

Do they?


You don't live in a Coke bottle that you paid an enormous amount to purchase and are now invested in.

You're very right about land being different than other forms of property. Which rules preside over a certain land is also important.

Let's say our libertarian capitalist ends up with his seastead. He "sells" (but this is really renting) lots of plots to people who want freedom. When he removes the freedom and they flee, he can buy back the land at a fraction of the cost. He wants them to stop drinking Coke so he gets the bottles back. He's an entrepreneur. It's not about the Coke. There's more money in manipulating the value of land via policy change.

Little Big Man wrote on Jul 9th, 2019 at 1:17pm:
Government exists for the purpose of denying freedom and taking money.  Business has selfish goals, but not those goals.


In the United States, there's at least a veneer of the government existing to protect freedom. They only do it as little as possible to maintain that veneer, but it's better than nothing.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Re: Your Libertarian Paradise... Turns Out Socialist?
Reply #25 - Jul 10th, 2019 at 12:04am
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The Opposition wrote on Jul 9th, 2019 at 9:09pm:
That's fine, just understand you'll have more disposable income under tyranny. Under perfect freedom, it will all go to rent.

Oh, look, you made an extra hapenny today. I think I'll charge you an extra hapenny of rent today. You don't like it? Jump in the ocean.




The Op,  this can and also cannot be true about more disposable income but what is to stop the tyrant from increasing the rent anytime he wants?  I don't talk about perfect freedom but do you not believe there would be laws against breach of contract?
  
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Re: Your Libertarian Paradise... Turns Out Socialist?
Reply #26 - Jul 10th, 2019 at 8:33am
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Little Big Man wrote on Jul 9th, 2019 at 7:49pm:
Better yet, name some governments that do not deny freedom and take money and I will exclude them from that statement in the future.
This is your statement that I took issue with:

"Government exists for the purpose of denying freedom and taking money."

That is not true of the U.S. government, which was established for purposes referred to in the Preamble to our Constitution.
  

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Jeff
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Re: Your Libertarian Paradise... Turns Out Socialist?
Reply #27 - Jul 10th, 2019 at 8:35am
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Little Big Man wrote on Jul 9th, 2019 at 7:49pm:
A wonderful idea, except that only government has the legitimate power to charge and hand people.
Agents of the government have a legitimate obligation to enforce the laws on behalf of the people in whose name they are authorized to act.
  

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Jeff
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Re: Your Libertarian Paradise... Turns Out Socialist?
Reply #28 - Jul 10th, 2019 at 8:37am
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The Opposition wrote on Jul 9th, 2019 at 9:09pm:
That's fine, just understand you'll have more disposable income under tyranny.
Cheesy Cheesy
Only if you are the tyrant or a crony.

  

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Re: Your Libertarian Paradise... Turns Out Socialist?
Reply #29 - Jul 10th, 2019 at 8:48am
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SkyChief wrote on Jul 9th, 2019 at 8:19pm:
I acknowledge and salute your cynicism.   Smiley

If the SeaState is close to US coastal waters, it can call on the US Navy to protect from pirates.   SeaState will be considered a vessel since it is anchored and free-floating.

The US Navy provides protection from pirates all over the world - they would jump at the opportunity to engage any pirates who try to shake down the SeaState micro-nation.   

I don't need to tell you how much the US likes to use the Military for intervention in foreign affairs!!     Grin    Grin
I thought that SeaState was setting itself up as a sovereign nation?

The navy might deal with pirates that are seen as a threat to U.S. shipping, but I don't know that they would worry about this SeaState place... If it's going to be just outside U.S. territorial waters, where do you think the pirates will come from? Won't they know that everyone living in SeaState is likely to be armed?
  

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