Libertarian's Forum
Libertarian Forum to discuss politics and free market economics.
Libertarian's ForumLibertarian's ForumFreedom Forum › Your Libertarian Paradise... Turns Out Socialist?
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 7 Send TopicPrint
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Your Libertarian Paradise... Turns Out Socialist? (Read 698 times)
SkyChief
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 10454
Location: California Coast
Joined: Aug 18th, 2014
Re: Your Libertarian Paradise... Turns Out Socialist?
Reply #30 - Jul 10th, 2019 at 10:00am
Print Post  
Jeff wrote on Jul 10th, 2019 at 8:48am:
I thought that SeaState was setting itself up as a sovereign nation?

The navy might deal with pirates that are seen as a threat to U.S. shipping, but I don't know that they would worry about this SeaState place... If it's going to be just outside U.S. territorial waters, where do you think the pirates will come from? Won't they know that everyone living in SeaState is likely to be armed?

It's no secret that the US Navy has big toys in the toy-box.  They like to play with them whenever possible.   By protecting a SeaSteading  community from pirates, and other hostile players, they gain a favorable appearance in the international stage.

The SeaState will be armed to the teeth and able to repel small-scale pirates in small craft. 

It won't, however be capable of defense against a Russian or Chinese Warship.   That's when the US will be called upon to take on an active role in defense of SeaState. 

The US will view it as an honor to intervene.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Little Biq Man
Libertarian Senior Member
****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 428
Joined: Mar 17th, 2019
Re: Your Libertarian Paradise... Turns Out Socialist?
Reply #31 - Jul 10th, 2019 at 10:09am
Print Post  
Jeff wrote on Jul 10th, 2019 at 8:33am:
This is your statement that I took issue with:

"Government exists for the purpose of denying freedom and taking money."

That is not true of the U.S. government, which was established for purposes referred to in the Preamble to our Constitution.


Denying freedom:

No person held to service or labour in one state, under the laws thereof, escaping into another, shall, in consequence of any law or regulation therein, be discharged from such service or labor, but shall be delivered up on claim of the party to whom such service or labour may be due.

Taking  money:

Article I, Section 8, Clause 1: The Congress shall have Power to lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises,
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 43810
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Your Libertarian Paradise... Turns Out Socialist?
Reply #32 - Jul 10th, 2019 at 1:18pm
Print Post  
SkyChief wrote on Jul 10th, 2019 at 10:00am:
The SeaState will be armed to the teeth and able to repel small-scale pirates in small craft. 

It won't, however be capable of defense against a Russian or Chinese Warship.
You imagine the Russians or Chinese would waste their time?
  

"Free hate speech"
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 43810
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Your Libertarian Paradise... Turns Out Socialist?
Reply #33 - Jul 10th, 2019 at 1:20pm
Print Post  
Little Biq Man wrote on Jul 10th, 2019 at 10:09am:
Denying freedom:

No person held to service or labour in one state, under the laws thereof, escaping into another, shall, in consequence of any law or regulation therein, be discharged from such service or labor, but shall be delivered up on claim of the party to whom such service or labour may be due.

Taking  money:

Article I, Section 8, Clause 1: The Congress shall have Power to lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises,
The 14th Amendment took care of the first in 1868. Try to keep current...

Authorized legal taxation is not theft, it is not the same at all as "taking money".

That our government takes money without authority is undeniable, but they do it by means other than legal taxation.


  

"Free hate speech"
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
SkyChief
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 10454
Location: California Coast
Joined: Aug 18th, 2014
Re: Your Libertarian Paradise... Turns Out Socialist?
Reply #34 - Jul 10th, 2019 at 1:30pm
Print Post  
Jeff wrote on Jul 10th, 2019 at 1:18pm:
You imagine the Russians or Chinese would waste their time?

Nope. 

You were asking a hypothetical question.   So I offered a hypothetical answer.   Wink
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 43810
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Your Libertarian Paradise... Turns Out Socialist?
Reply #35 - Jul 10th, 2019 at 1:40pm
Print Post  
SkyChief wrote on Jul 10th, 2019 at 1:30pm:
Nope. 

You were asking a hypothetical question.   So I offered a hypothetical answer.   Wink
I was asking a question I hoped you would answer seriously, but of course you're right, everything about SeaState is hypothetical and highly unlikely to ever be realized.
  

"Free hate speech"
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
SkyChief
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 10454
Location: California Coast
Joined: Aug 18th, 2014
Re: Your Libertarian Paradise... Turns Out Socialist?
Reply #36 - Jul 10th, 2019 at 1:58pm
Print Post  
Jeff wrote on Jul 10th, 2019 at 1:40pm:
. . . you're right, everything about SeaState is hypothetical and highly unlikely to ever be realized.

The prospect of a libertarian society with no taxation scares the hell out of you, doesn't it?
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 43810
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Your Libertarian Paradise... Turns Out Socialist?
Reply #37 - Jul 10th, 2019 at 2:07pm
Print Post  
SkyChief wrote on Jul 10th, 2019 at 1:58pm:
The prospect of a libertarian society with no taxation scares the hell out of you, doesn't it?
It won't be a "libertarian society" Chief, it will be some form of anarchy and it will lead to tyranny.

Anyway, I object to this construction- "libertarian society". It's a nonsense utopian fantasy.

Libertarians want enough government to keep the non-libertarians of the thief, and rapist, and murderer, varieties under control.

Thieves, and rapists, and murderers, are unfortunately a part of every human society.
  

"Free hate speech"
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Little Biq Man
Libertarian Senior Member
****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 428
Joined: Mar 17th, 2019
Re: Your Libertarian Paradise... Turns Out Socialist?
Reply #38 - Jul 10th, 2019 at 2:19pm
Print Post  
Jeff wrote on Jul 10th, 2019 at 1:20pm:
The 14th Amendment took care of the first in 1868. Try to keep current...


You cited the preamble to the constitution which was written contemporaneously with the fugitive slave clause.  So your claim that we can trust the preamble's purposes is false, unless you are saying that returning fugitive slaves is part of the preamble also.

Quote:
Authorized legal taxation is not theft, it is not the same at all as "taking money".


Just for fun, I'd like to read your tortured definition of taxation that excludes taking money.

Quote:
That our government takes money without authority is undeniable, but they do it by means other than legal taxation.




Do what?

Take money?

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 43810
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Your Libertarian Paradise... Turns Out Socialist?
Reply #39 - Jul 10th, 2019 at 4:49pm
Print Post  
Little Biq Man wrote on Jul 10th, 2019 at 2:19pm:
You cited the preamble to the constitution which was written contemporaneously with the fugitive slave clause.  So your claim that we can trust the preamble's purposes is false, unless you are saying that returning fugitive slaves is part of the preamble also.
You find a mention of slavery in the Preamble?

The purposes are real, they are why the American people created the government they did. The Preamble can also be correctly read as a description of the government's duties. and they don't include taking money or denying freedom.

Your extremely lame pseudo arguments fall flat.
  

"Free hate speech"
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 7
Send TopicPrint
 
Libertarian's ForumLibertarian's ForumFreedom Forum › Your Libertarian Paradise... Turns Out Socialist?
Libertarian's Forum

Libertarian's Forum Information Rules, Agreement and Privacy Policy