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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Your Libertarian Paradise... Turns Out Socialist? (Read 1035 times)
Jeff
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Re: Your Libertarian Paradise... Turns Out Socialist?
Reply #50 - Jul 10th, 2019 at 7:59pm
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Little Biq Man wrote on Jul 10th, 2019 at 7:57pm:
Give me some names, then.
Do some research on your own. It will take time. You obviously need to read a lot of history.

In any case, it doesn't matter. Slave state representatives at the Constitutional Convention insisted on having the Constitution protect slavery. That is true. All of them are dead and slavery has been abolished since 1868. That is also true.
  

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Little Biq Man
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Re: Your Libertarian Paradise... Turns Out Socialist?
Reply #51 - Jul 10th, 2019 at 8:25pm
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Jeff wrote on Jul 10th, 2019 at 7:59pm:
Do some research on your own.


That's what you always say when you're talking out your ass and get called on it.

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In any case, it doesn't matter. Slave state representatives at the Constitutional Convention insisted on having the Constitution protect slavery. That is true. All of them are dead and slavery has been abolished since 1868. That is also true.


It only matters because it shows that you are talking out your ass when you pretend that Washington, Jefferson, Madison, Hancock, et al, were some kind of abolitionists. 

  
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Re: Your Libertarian Paradise... Turns Out Socialist?
Reply #52 - Jul 10th, 2019 at 10:27pm
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Little Biq Man wrote on Jul 10th, 2019 at 8:25pm:
Washington, Jefferson, Madison, Hancock, et al, were some kind of abolitionists. 



I don't think they were since they were all slave owners.  I read that Jefferson owned over 40 slaves.  Fact: Did you know that Lincoln wanted to deport all slaves after they were freed?
  
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Jeff
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Re: Your Libertarian Paradise... Turns Out Socialist?
Reply #53 - Jul 11th, 2019 at 6:24am
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Little Biq Man wrote on Jul 10th, 2019 at 8:25pm:
It only matters because it shows that you are talking out your ass when you pretend that Washington, Jefferson, Madison, Hancock, et al, were some kind of abolitionists. 
They were the kind of abolitionists who hoped slavery would disappear on it's own over time and didn't want to enshrine it in the Constitution but had no idea what to do with the slaves, who they believed would never be successfully integrated into American society.

Jefferson was a bigot and a delusional dreamer who was confused about the issue of slavery, as were many people then and now.

Slave state delegates to the Constitutional convention insisted slavery be preserved by the Constitution. Free state delegates reluctantly accepted it in order to get the slave states to join the union.

All of them are dead and slavery was abolished in 1868.
  

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Jeff
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Re: Your Libertarian Paradise... Turns Out Socialist?
Reply #54 - Jul 11th, 2019 at 6:31am
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yamcha wrote on Jul 10th, 2019 at 10:27pm:
I don't think they were since they were all slave owners.  I read that Jefferson owned over 40 slaves.  Fact: Did you know that Lincoln wanted to deport all slaves after they were freed?
Lots more than 40!

The idea of sending former slaves back to Africa was held by lots of people from the time of the founding onward. Even ardent abolitionists in free states didn't want freed slaves coming to live in their town.

Bigotry and prejudice remain alive even today pretty much everywhere in the world. Tribalism of one sort or another is still common to many (most?) humans.
  

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Little Biq Man
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Re: Your Libertarian Paradise... Turns Out Socialist?
Reply #55 - Jul 11th, 2019 at 1:42pm
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Jeff wrote on Jul 11th, 2019 at 6:24am:
They were the kind of abolitionists who hoped slavery would disappear on it's own over time


Oh.

That kind of abolitionist.

Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

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and didn't want to enshrine it in the Constitution but had no idea what to do with the slaves,


Yeah, that was in the movie about John Adams.  No idea?  How about just free them?   There was no government welfare at the time so that would have been a no-cost option.

What they had "no idea" about was how to free them and still get their cotton and tobacky grown and harvested for free.

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who they believed would never be successfully integrated into American society.


Because of racist ass-wholes like themselves, you mean?  Or are you claiming that there is something innate about being black that makes one unable to integrate into American society.  Never mind.  I know your answer.

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Jefferson was a bigot and a delusional dreamer who was confused about the issue of slavery, as were many people then and now.


Don't forget child rapist.  You used to tell LBM that he was just a romantic guy who had a girl fall in love with him.  Must have been his big whip, huh?

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Slave state delegates to the Constitutional convention insisted slavery be preserved by the Constitution. Free state delegates reluctantly accepted it in order to get the slave states to join the union.


Plus, they liked the cheap cotton.

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All of them are dead and slavery was abolished in 1868.


It seems to me all the worse that they knew slavery was wrong but still supported it so they could maintain their own power.    I think Washington and Jefferson must have honestly thought like you that blacks are less than human and so slavery was not really any more wrong than hooking horses to wagons.  Jefferson probably thought the child he raped all those years had no more feelings than a love doll in a modern robot brothel.


  
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Jeff
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Re: Your Libertarian Paradise... Turns Out Socialist?
Reply #56 - Jul 11th, 2019 at 4:14pm
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Little Biq Man wrote on Jul 11th, 2019 at 1:42pm:
Because of racist ass-wholes like themselves, you mean?  Or are you claiming that there is something innate about being black that makes one unable to integrate into American society.  Never mind.  I know your answer.
Slave state governments made it illegal to teach slaves to read or write, which intentionally and severely limited their options in society at the time, and racists, which all slave owners were, thought blacks were just dumb beasts because it made them feel better about enslaving them, but it also gave them the idea that blacks could never become productive citizens, an idea they promoted because they wanted to keep them enslaved.

People like Jefferson knew better, but wanted to maintain their plantation owner lifestyle, and most people in free states had little experience of black people and were all too often willing to accept the "dumb beast" characterization.

Newly freed slaves who had been prevented from getting any education at all did indeed have a hard time integrating into a society that didn't want them for anything but cheap grunt labor, especially since that's all that most of them knew how to do, through no fault of their own.
Edit: How would your plan to eliminate public schools have worked out for the children of ex-slaves? Having crappy public schools for blacks didn't do them any favors... How much potential was wasted, how many lives of children stunted and destroyed by that injustice? How much worse if they had to wait until their uneducated parents saved enough money to send them to private schools, most of which wouldn't have accepted them anyway?

Slave revolts on Caribbean islands made everybody very nervous, because they involved wholesale slaughter and anarchy... Another reason people thought sending freed slaves to Africa was a good idea.
  

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Jeff
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Re: Your Libertarian Paradise... Turns Out Socialist?
Reply #57 - Jul 11th, 2019 at 4:18pm
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Little Biq Man wrote on Jul 11th, 2019 at 1:42pm:
Jefferson probably thought the child he raped all those years had no more feelings than a love doll in a modern robot brothel.
Jefferson might have fathered a child by  one of his slaves.

Saying he raped a child for years is undocumented, unfair, and makes all your arguments suspect because it makes you sound like a wild eyed raving idiot.
  

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Re: Your Libertarian Paradise... Turns Out Socialist?
Reply #58 - Jul 11th, 2019 at 4:56pm
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Jeff wrote on Jul 11th, 2019 at 4:18pm:
Jefferson might have fathered a child by  one of his slaves.

Saying he raped a child for years is undocumented, unfair, and makes all your arguments suspect because it makes you sound like a wild eyed raving idiot.


From the Washington Post, not exactly a bastion of wild-eyed libertarianism:



Sally Hemings wasn’t Thomas Jefferson’s mistress. She was his property.

Many of these stories described Hemings, the mother of six children with Jefferson, as the former president’s “mistress.” The Inquisitr, the Daily Mail, AOL and Cox Media Group all used the word (though Cox later updated its wording). So did an NBC News tweet that drew scathing criticism, though its story accurately called her “the enslaved woman who, historians believe, gave birth to six of Jefferson’s children.” The Washington Post also used “mistress” in a headline and a tweet about Hemings’s room in February.

Language like that elides the true nature of their relationship, which is believed to have begun when Hemings, then 14 years old, accompanied Jefferson’s daughter to live with Jefferson, then 44, in Paris. She wasn’t Jefferson’s mistress; she was his property. And he raped her.

Such revisionist history about slavery is, unfortunately, still quite common. In 2015, Texas rolled out what many saw as a “whitewashed ” version of its social studies curriculum that referred to enslaved Africans as “immigrants” and “workers” and minimized slavery’s impact on the Civil War. One concerned parent spoke out, forcing a textbook publisher to revise some of the teaching materials.


  
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Jeff
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Re: Your Libertarian Paradise... Turns Out Socialist?
Reply #59 - Jul 11th, 2019 at 6:20pm
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Little Biq Man wrote on Jul 11th, 2019 at 4:56pm:
From the Washington Post, not exactly a bastion of wild-eyed libertarianism:

[b][i]

Sally Hemings wasn’t Thomas Jefferson’s mistress. She was his property.

Many of these stories...
It's not news that Jefferson owned Sally Hemings.

As to the stories the author refers to, that's what they are, stories.
  

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