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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Voting rights only for property owners (Read 369 times)
yamcha
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Re: Voting rights only for property owners
Reply #10 - Jul 9th, 2019 at 1:07pm
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Well maybe not but certainly a trick question aimed to turn people Libertarian

a) which party supports government regulation and surveillance of everything, unlimited taxes for social programs that you may or may not agree with, trannies subverting your children through storybook time?

b) which party support sending your teens to the middle east to fight Israels's enemies and come back in body bags or with PTSD?

c) which party lets you keep all your earnings and leaves you alone to pursue happiness?

But it doesn't really matter right?:
SkyChief wrote on Jul 9th, 2019 at 1:32am:
Fair enough.

Forget the Voter Proficiency Exam!

Let the land owners vote.   I support your plan 100%!

Smiley


Smiley
  
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SkyChief
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Re: Voting rights only for property owners
Reply #11 - Jul 9th, 2019 at 1:13pm
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yamcha wrote on Jul 9th, 2019 at 1:07pm:
Well maybe not but certainly a trick question aimed to turn people Libertarian

How is this

What are the 3 branches of government?

a)  Legislative, Judicial, and Financial
b)  Financial, Labor, and Entitlements
c)  Legislative, Executive, and Judicial
d)  Energy, Trade, and Foreign Affairs

a "trick question" aimed at turning people Libertarian?
  
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Jeff
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Re: Voting rights only for property owners
Reply #12 - Jul 9th, 2019 at 1:58pm
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yamcha wrote on Jul 7th, 2019 at 11:44pm:
Does this make sense to you?  Or do you think democracy is an antiquated concept and should be replaced perhaps?

Only people who are invested in a piece of the nation to be allowed to have a vote on national policy, laws and regulations?   As a renter, it would give me in a lot of incentive to work my way up to property owner.

Let's say they there was a proposition on your state ballot that if passed would require anyone who owned a property to rent out one of the rooms to low-income or minority tenant for very cheap or free. Who do you think would vote yes? The property owner or the one with nothing to his name?  Those who don't usually even vote would come out in droves to get this proposition passed. The majority being disenfranchised in this case is the whole point. Good things are hard to get.

This is my proposal:

1. Only property owners who own the ground land get to vote. This is important because merely owning a flat in a high rise doesn't cut it. You don't actually own the land and that building can come down any time without your consent.

2. In order to vote you will have to own a certain amount of square footage minimum. I propose a 1-acre minimum. This way some guy can't just buy a property the square footage of an outhouse in the back of an alley and start voting for propositions that will get him in a bigger house for free.

3. The more acreage you own the more votes you are allocated. So if you lets say you own 3.4 acres then you are allotted 3 votes etc. Only the ground space you own is counted so if you buy 2 acres of land and build a 10 story apartment building, you do not get 20 votes, you get 2 votes.

This is how a publicly run corporation works in a free market and I think it is the fairest way. People who own land will vote for policies that make their land prosperous and if everyone with land voted this way then we all would be living on a great land, renters included.

It's about skin in the game to me and I say this as a RENTER.  (lost my house during the 2010 mortgage crisis.)
I don't like the idea.

My idea was/is that only productive people be allowed to vote. If you pay "income" taxes on money you earn, or taxes on actual incomes,  you can vote.
  

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yamcha
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Re: Voting rights only for property owners
Reply #13 - Jul 9th, 2019 at 10:20pm
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SkyChief wrote on Jul 9th, 2019 at 12:45pm:
Not at all.

My Voter Proficiency Exam is simply a way to screen "bad" votes.

It's really more of a quiz than an exam. . . Just 3 or 4 common knowledge questions that any 8th grader should know.        Here are a couple of sample questions :


What are the 3 branches of government?

a)  Legislative, Judicial, and Financial
b)  Financial, Labor, and Entitlements
c)  Legislative, Executive, and Judicial
d)  Energy, Trade, and Foreign Affairs

What are the functions of Congress?

a)  Codify Civil Liberties and Recommend jurists on the Supreme Court
b)  Oversee the House of Representatives and suggest replacements.
c)  Make Laws and conduct investigations to oversee the Executive Branch.
d)  Oversee the IRS and expand the Bill of Rights.

Now, that's not anywhere near "biased thought-control", is it?   Grin


This is definitely better if you are screening for intelligence and literacy but if you want to lean the vote more towards Libertarianism then the original quiz would be better.
  
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yamcha
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Re: Voting rights only for property owners
Reply #14 - Jul 10th, 2019 at 4:09am
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After some further thought, I would like to present a kind of antithesis to my Voting rights and land ownership idea/proposal.

It occurred to me that Libertarianism is, of course, a Western concept just as democracy and liberty.  Western concepts as in they were created by Western minds.  So, therefore, may not be suitable or even sensible to non-Western or newly Westernized people.

Years ago while studying for my masters I read (in Chinese) The True Story of Ah Q a novella by Lu Xun a prominent author during China's period transitioning into a republic.  The book was written in the early 1920s but takes place about 10 years prior in the 10s.  The book states that the word freedom was a newly created word at the time and most people did not know how to read it much less what it meant.  (Food for thought.)

Recently, I watch a documentary series called The Vietnam War. 

One of the most frustrating things that the American "advisors" had to deal with fighting that war was getting villagers and farmers to vacate their land.  These people were completely uneducated in Western civilization and culture and had no understanding or interest in liberty, social equality, much less voting rights.  They simply knew that their land was passed down to them by their ancestors for not only them but all future generation and to abandon it would be an unthinkable sin.  If you had to die then so be it but you have to die on your land!

As you can imagine, this was very frustrating to Americans who felt they were trying help these people. And worse considering they themselves come from a country where land was plentiful and the government even incentivized people just a few generations earlier by giving out free land if they were willing to move west and make something of the land.  Land had less value to Americans since it was just too simple enough to just get up and leave your land during times of drought or famine, etc.  There was no strong heritage or cultural connection to the land.

Many historians agree that failure to understand the cultural difference was why we lost that war.

Our soldiers were forced to make themselves look like the bad guys by coming into villages that were full of assumed hotbeds communist activity and raid and burn down homes and fields.  However, the Commies were able to turn the villagers by promising that they get to keep their land. (even though they didn't explain that it would be technically everybody's land.)  This led to an endless war that the Commies knew they would eventually win since for every village the enemy would destroy, they would get hundreds of fresh volunteers from that very same village.

Another thing Americans didn't seem to realize is that the Vietnamese have a many thousand-year history of war and they have by that time had survived the Chinese, the French and the Japanese and they knew that empires and dynasties rise and fall but land stays and without the land there cannot be the people and without the people there cannot be anything.

I don't really know where I am getting with this but considering all I just said and how America is increasingly getting less Western and more subverted to non-Western ideas such as Marxism that maybe the whole Libertarian deal won't be feasible or even valid at some point.

Anyone care to help me clarify my thoughts on this?
  
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Re: Voting rights only for property owners
Reply #15 - Jul 10th, 2019 at 11:40am
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The US never should have intervened in VietNam.   What a colossal debacle that turned out to be. 

The war had become so expensive that in August of 1971, President Nixon had to end Bretton Woods and make the US Dollar fiat, meaning it was backed by absolutely nothing, and would no longer be convertible to gold.

It was called the "Nixon Shock" 

https://history.state.gov/milestones/1969-1976/nixon-shock

I think your original premise is correct - only property owners should be able to vote.   

If only property owners could vote, LBJ would never have sent in US troops to Vietnam.  The property owners would have immediately impeached him for (mis)using the US Military for political objectives.

LBJ would have spent the rest of his life behind bars, and tens of thousands of US servicemen's lives would be spared.
  
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Re: Voting rights only for property owners
Reply #16 - Jul 10th, 2019 at 1:28pm
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yamcha wrote on Jul 10th, 2019 at 4:09am:
It occurred to me that Libertarianism is, of course, a Western concept just as democracy and liberty.  Western concepts as in they were created by Western minds.  So, therefore, may not be suitable or even sensible to non-Western or newly Westernized people.

Years ago while studying for my masters I read (in Chinese) The True Story of Ah Q a novella by Lu Xun a prominent author during China's period transitioning into a republic.  The book was written in the early 1920s but takes place about 10 years prior in the 10s.  The book states that the word freedom was a newly created word at the time and most people did not know how to read it much less what it meant.  (Food for thought.)

Recently, I watch a documentary series called The Vietnam War. 

One of the most frustrating things that the American "advisors" had to deal with fighting that war was getting villagers and farmers to vacate their land.  These people were completely uneducated in Western civilization and culture and had no understanding or interest in liberty, social equality, much less voting rights.  They simply knew that their land was passed down to them by their ancestors for not only them but all future generation and to abandon it would be an unthinkable sin.  If you had to die then so be it but you have to die on your land!

As you can imagine, this was very frustrating to Americans who felt they were trying help these people. And worse considering they themselves come from a country where land was plentiful and the government even incentivized people just a few generations earlier by giving out free land if they were willing to move west and make something of the land.  Land had less value to Americans since it was just too simple enough to just get up and leave your land during times of drought or famine, etc.  There was no strong heritage or cultural connection to the land.

Many historians agree that failure to understand the cultural difference was why we lost that war.

Our soldiers were forced to make themselves look like the bad guys by coming into villages that were full of assumed hotbeds communist activity and raid and burn down homes and fields.  However, the Commies were able to turn the villagers by promising that they get to keep their land. (even though they didn't explain that it would be technically everybody's land.)  This led to an endless war that the Commies knew they would eventually win since for every village the enemy would destroy, they would get hundreds of fresh volunteers from that very same village.

Another thing Americans didn't seem to realize is that the Vietnamese have a many thousand-year history of war and they have by that time had survived the Chinese, the French and the Japanese and they knew that empires and dynasties rise and fall but land stays and without the land there cannot be the people and without the people there cannot be anything.

I don't really know where I am getting with this but considering all I just said and how America is increasingly getting less Western and more subverted to non-Western ideas such as Marxism that maybe the whole Libertarian deal won't be feasible or even valid at some point.

Anyone care to help me clarify my thoughts on this?
When was China ever a republic?

If you were paying attention, you'd know the Cato Institute has affiliates all over the world. People everywhere have heard about human rights and individual liberty. The British carried the ideas with them throughout their empire, The ideas of the American Revolution were known.

Anyway, Marxism/communism is a western idea too.

Edit: We "lost" the Vietnam war because our politicians and the socialist U.S. media wanted us to lose it. No other reason.
  

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yamcha
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Re: Voting rights only for property owners
Reply #17 - Jul 10th, 2019 at 9:01pm
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SkyChief wrote on Jul 10th, 2019 at 11:40am:
The US never should have intervened in VietNam.   What a colossal debacle that turned out to be. 

The war had become so expensive that in August of 1971, President Nixon had to end Bretton Woods and make the US Dollar fiat, meaning it was backed by absolutely nothing, and would no longer be convertible to gold.

It was called the "Nixon Shock" 

https://history.state.gov/milestones/1969-1976/nixon-shock

I think your original premise is correct - only property owners should be able to vote.   

If only property owners could vote, LBJ would never have sent in US troops to Vietnam.  The property owners would have immediately impeached him for (mis)using the US Military for political objectives.

LBJ would have spent the rest of his life behind bars, and tens of thousands of US servicemen's lives would be spared.


I agree and I am sure you know about Lady Bird and Bell Helicopters right?

My so-called "antithesis" to my proposal is really more about questioning if Libertarian or Western ideas are applicable to non-Western people.  Maybe their own culture is too strong?  Maybe the Chinese do better under an emperor?  I excluded Marxism since it is not inherently Western, it was created by a Jewish mind and Its effect on Western nations has been well documented.

But look at old colonies in Africa,  Nigeria, the Gold Coast in West Africa, and Kenya, Uganda, Tanganyika in East Africa, for example.  After the Western colonizers left, the inhabitants of these places could not keep it together even after having been "Westernized"  Some would argue that you cannot give structure to those who do have not developed the capacity for structure by their own means since they will not be able to maintain such structure but I don't know, maybe its really just a distinct cultural personality.
  
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SkyChief
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Re: Voting rights only for property owners
Reply #18 - Jul 11th, 2019 at 12:47am
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yamcha wrote on Jul 10th, 2019 at 9:01pm:
I agree and I am sure you know about Lady Bird and Bell Helicopters right?
I knew her family owned a lot of Bell Helicopter stocks, that's all.   Was there some kind of sinister connection?

yamcha wrote on Jul 10th, 2019 at 9:01pm:
My so-called "antithesis" to my proposal is really more about questioning if Libertarian or Western ideas are applicable to non-Western people.  Maybe the Chinese do better under an emperor?
Liberty is big deal for Americans.  It's in our DNA.    Our country was founded by people who were fed up with idiotic taxes imposed by a King in a far-away land.   So they armed themselves and tarred and feathered the tax collectors when they came a-knockin'!   Grin   

As for the Chinese, Africans and Europeans, liberty is not such a big deal.   They never really had it, so they don't make a fuss if it's denied to them. 

Switzerland used to be very libertarian, but socialists have infiltrated, and are slowly chipping away at their liberties.   The Swiss people are like the frogs in the boiling water.   They are becoming acclimated to less liberties.   They will ask  Was ist mit unserer Freiheit passiert?   Undecided
  
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Re: Voting rights only for property owners
Reply #19 - Jul 11th, 2019 at 1:04am
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Yes, the story goes that LBJ and his wife started the war in Nam to make money off the Bell Helicopter shares.  Vietnam as you know, was a helicopter war.


(Helicopter Man)

"Lyndon Baines Johnson was reportedly so fond of helicopters he used a helicopter seat as his desk chair in the Oval Office while president. Perhaps that love of rotor-craft came from the fact that helicopters played a pivotal role in Johnson’s political career."

Chief, you are probably a bit older than me and can remember the Vietnam war pretty well.  Bet you must have lost some young men in your neighborhood to it.

It is funny that you should mention the Swiss.  I used to work for Nestle.  I ve have over there twice.  The first time I thought the place was so damn nice until one time while stuck at a broken crosswalk, I couldn't understand why all the folks waiting next to me didn't just simply cross the street after 10 minutes without a single car in sight!
« Last Edit: Jul 11th, 2019 at 2:07am by yamcha »  
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