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The Opposition
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Re: Jim Jordon: "There's no one on this committee that would support . . .
Reply #40 - Jul 13th, 2019 at 12:31pm
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Jeff wrote on Jul 13th, 2019 at 8:12am:
It's not. Most people can understand it, but apparently you aren't one of them.


Show me these most people who think the pool boy will get more just because he knows trig.

Somebody has to be the garbage man. Or whatever the worst job is.

Jeff wrote on Jul 13th, 2019 at 8:12am:
The simple explanation is that if you have a lot of people with no skills or low skills, they have to seek jobs they can actually do, like cutting lawns and cleaning swimming pools, and the more people there are competing for those type of low skill jobs, the less they will be able to command as compensation. Supply and demand is pretty basic and simple.


Either you'll have minimum wage for this exact issue, or in a non-redistributive system, wages falling to below subsistence + children would prevent these mowers of lawns and pool boys from having kids, driving up the cost of labour again when the population falls.

I don't know how you can complain about this in a world where most people already live paycheck to paycheck, hand to mouth.

Let's say there are 10 good jobs and 100 people. You're still positing that once those high-skilled jobs are filled, the rest of them (now educated) won't compete and drop wages for the remaining unskilled jobs.

Seems to me all you did was raise competition and drop wages for the skilled jobs too.

Reading and writing should be worth something. It takes time to invest in developing literacy. Now, because everyone can read and write, that skill is worthless. It's assumed. The employee still makes minimum wage and the business gets that skill for free.

You want to do this for every skill?
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: Jim Jordon: "There's no one on this committee that would support . . .
Reply #41 - Jul 13th, 2019 at 1:58pm
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The Opposition wrote on Jul 13th, 2019 at 12:31pm:
Show me these most people who think the pool boy will get more just because he knows trig.

People doing jobs like cleaning swimming pools don't get paid more for cleaning pools because they know trig.

Knowing trig opens up opportunities for them to better jobs than cleaning swimming pools... But of course knowledge of trig alone isn't enough to get you a good job either.

For a supergenius, you sure have some stupid ideas.
  

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Re: Jim Jordon: "There's no one on this committee that would support . . .
Reply #42 - Jul 13th, 2019 at 2:00pm
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The Opposition wrote on Jul 13th, 2019 at 12:31pm:
Either you'll have minimum wage for this exact issue, or in a non-redistributive system, wages falling to below subsistence + children would prevent these mowers of lawns and pool boys from having kids, driving up the cost of labour again when the population falls.

Right. After the Black Death swept Europe, the cost of labor went up.
  

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Jeff
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Re: Jim Jordon: "There's no one on this committee that would support . . .
Reply #43 - Jul 13th, 2019 at 2:04pm
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The Opposition wrote on Jul 13th, 2019 at 12:31pm:
Let's say there are 10 good jobs and 100 people. You're still positing that once those high-skilled jobs are filled, the rest of them (now educated) won't compete and drop wages for the remaining unskilled jobs.

Seems to me all you did was raise competition and drop wages for the skilled jobs too.

In a free economy with protected property rights, people create new jobs.

It's only heavily regulated economies (un-free) that start to look like a zero sum game... And of Course Marxists/collectivists, failing completely to understand how free markets with protected property rights work, think economics is a zero sum game. It's not.


  

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Re: Jim Jordon: "There's no one on this committee that would support . . .
Reply #44 - Jul 13th, 2019 at 8:09pm
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Jeff wrote on Jul 13th, 2019 at 1:58pm:
People doing jobs like cleaning swimming pools don't get paid more for cleaning pools because they know trig.

Knowing trig opens up opportunities for them to better jobs than cleaning swimming pools... But of course knowledge of trig alone isn't enough to get you a good job either.



And your claim is that public school graduates typically have learned trig in public school?

  
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Re: Jim Jordon: "There's no one on this committee that would support . . .
Reply #45 - Jul 14th, 2019 at 6:09am
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Little Biq Man wrote on Jul 13th, 2019 at 8:09pm:
And your claim is that public school graduates typically have learned trig in public school?

Why do you keep making things up and trying to make it sound like something I claimed?

In fact, I learned the basics of calculus and trigonometry in a public high school in 1968, but I have no idea if any public high schools still teach trig and calculus. Probably some do, but not to everyone who attends.

"Typically" as you say, I'd guess that not many people learn trigonometry or calculus even in college.
  

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Re: Jim Jordon: "There's no one on this committee that would support . . .
Reply #46 - Jul 15th, 2019 at 10:53pm
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Jeff wrote on Jul 13th, 2019 at 2:04pm:
In a free economy with protected property rights, people create new jobs.

It's only heavily regulated economies (un-free) that start to look like a zero sum game... And of Course Marxists/collectivists, failing completely to understand how free markets with protected property rights work, think economics is a zero sum game. It's not.


Fine then: I'm for forced taxation for public schools but only in an economy that works as you describe, so get back to me when we have that.

And don't say we do now, because if we do, let the pool boys go create jobs if their current ones don't make enough money. Let them hire people who have the skills they lack.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
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Re: Jim Jordon: "There's no one on this committee that would support . . .
Reply #47 - Jul 16th, 2019 at 7:08am
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The Opposition wrote on Jul 15th, 2019 at 10:53pm:
Fine then: I'm for forced taxation for public schools but only in an economy that works as you describe, so get back to me when we have that.

It's all of a part, except that it's not.

Local schools under local control and paid for by local taxation won't happen unless we return to the limited government the Constitution creates and get rid of the Department of Education and special privileges for unions.
  

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Re: Jim Jordon: "There's no one on this committee that would support . . .
Reply #48 - Jul 16th, 2019 at 10:42am
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Jeff wrote on Jul 16th, 2019 at 7:08am:
It's all of a part, except that it's not.

Local schools under local control and paid for by local taxation won't happen unless we return to the limited government the Constitution creates and get rid of the Department of Education and special privileges for unions.


Fine. But until then, you're just wasting peoples' time giving everyone something and dropping wages for all of them.

You're also costing the community as people who will be working as pool boys anyway (which is at least some of them) sit in school until they're 97 acquiring skills they'll never use.

If you really can't stand that people who can't get an education on the free market get paid less, it would be much more efficient to let the free market decide who gets what job, but simply tax me and give it to the pool boy until he's paid the same. This would be far, far less taxation than buying them skills they'll never use and then supporting them if they don't make enough (or anything) anyway.

Do you understand why I would be perfectly happy to share any wages I make above the pool boy so we can make the same, but I'm significantly less happy training him to take my job away on my dime?

This is exactly what you want: Because it's unacceptable for anyone to be a pool boy, money must be taken from me by force so the pool boy can take my job, and then I can be the pool boy, which will make you perfectly happy.

This is how free marketeers think. It has to be a level playing field, so they'll level the playing field forcefully, over and over, until the property is where they want it, then oh, tough luck to the losers, free market baby!
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: Jim Jordon: "There's no one on this committee that would support . . .
Reply #49 - Jul 16th, 2019 at 12:48pm
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The Opposition wrote on Jul 16th, 2019 at 10:42am:
Fine. But until then, you're just wasting peoples' time giving everyone something and dropping wages for all of them.

You're also costing the community as people who will be working as pool boys anyway (which is at least some of them) sit in school until they're 97 acquiring skills they'll never use.

If you really can't stand that people who can't get an education on the free market get paid less, it would be much more efficient to let the free market decide who gets what job, but simply tax me and give it to the pool boy until he's paid the same. This would be far, far less taxation than buying them skills they'll never use and then supporting them if they don't make enough (or anything) anyway.

Do you understand why I would be perfectly happy to share any wages I make above the pool boy so we can make the same, but I'm significantly less happy training him to take my job away on my dime?

This is exactly what you want: Because it's unacceptable for anyone to be a pool boy, money must be taken from me by force so the pool boy can take my job, and then I can be the pool boy, which will make you perfectly happy.

This is how free marketeers think. It has to be a level playing field, so they'll level the playing field forcefully, over and over, until the property is where they want it, then oh, tough luck to the losers, free market baby!
It's much easier to have a civilized free society if every child has an opportunity to get a basic education, and a free market in education (which is still a good thing) simply won't provide that.

It's along the lines of it's much easier to have a civilized community if everyone gets police protection, and a free market in security (which is still a good thing) simply won't provide that, and BTW, living in a community where almost everyone has at least a basic education makes the job of the police much easier too!

Back on topic, the TwoParties are committed to supporting government controlled medical insurance until it's screwed up enough to justify single payer health care in the eyes of a majority of the American people.
  

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