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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) No licenses for no nothing! (Read 858 times)
SkyChief
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Re: No licenses for no nothing!
Reply #20 - Aug 2nd, 2019 at 5:25pm
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Governments will always devise ways to deprive an honest man of his money or property, and claim that it's legal.
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yamcha
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Re: No licenses for no nothing!
Reply #21 - Aug 2nd, 2019 at 8:26pm
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The Opposition wrote on Aug 2nd, 2019 at 10:04am:
Well, people do die because of mistakes. I remember reading that the Challenger fell apart because of one washer or o-ring or something.


Funny you should bring that up.  It was my uncle, a certified and licensed aerospace engineer for NASA, working out of one of the facilities in California who designed those rings.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: No licenses for no nothing!
Reply #22 - Aug 2nd, 2019 at 9:59pm
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yamcha wrote on Aug 2nd, 2019 at 8:26pm:
Funny you should bring that up.  It was my uncle, a certified and licensed aerospace engineer for NASA, working out of one of the facilities in California who designed those rings.


My educated guess is that someone told him, "Here are the heat and stress levels." and he tested the parts, and either the test was faulty or someone who handed the figures to him got them wrong.

Should someone be punished for this?

I'm hesitant to say no, only because I don't like the idea of a world where, "Whoops, it was a mistake," gives you a license to murder people. If we just let off those who make a mistake, those who want to do something like will simply say they made one.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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yamcha
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Re: No licenses for no nothing!
Reply #23 - Aug 2nd, 2019 at 10:20pm
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The Opposition wrote on Aug 2nd, 2019 at 9:59pm:
My educated guess is that someone told him, "Here are the heat and stress levels." and he tested the parts, and either the test was faulty or someone who handed the figures to him got them wrong.

Should someone be punished for this?


I have no idea what they told him.  I was in jr. high when it happened.  But, no I don't think anyone should be punished since the whole thing was voluntary.

Anyhow it's not a big deal since they are all alive:


  
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Jeff
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Re: No licenses for no nothing!
Reply #24 - Aug 3rd, 2019 at 7:33am
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The Opposition wrote on Aug 2nd, 2019 at 9:59pm:
My educated guess is that someone told him, "Here are the heat and stress levels." and he tested the parts, and either the test was faulty or someone who handed the figures to him got them wrong.

The rubber 'O' rings that were supposed to seal the fuel into the stacked segments of the rocket didn't because it was too cold on the day of the launch.

I guess the original design parameters didn't include a launch day in Florida that was as cold as  it was.

https://www.space.com/31732-space-shuttle-challenger-disaster-explained-infograp...

Morton Thiokol, the builder of the boosters, advised NASA that they believed it would be OK.

"It'll probably be OK" isn't always true.
  

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Jeff
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Re: No licenses for no nothing!
Reply #25 - Aug 3rd, 2019 at 7:36am
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yamcha wrote on Aug 2nd, 2019 at 8:26pm:
Funny you should bring that up.  It was my uncle, a certified and licensed aerospace engineer for NASA, working out of one of the facilities in California who designed those rings.
He would have been much better advised to use standard 'O' ring material and design from the aviation industry. They have 'O' ring materials and designs that work well at 50-60 degrees below zero.
  

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Jeff
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Re: No licenses for no nothing!
Reply #26 - Aug 3rd, 2019 at 7:43am
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The Opposition wrote on Aug 2nd, 2019 at 9:59pm:
Should someone be punished for this?

I'm hesitant to say no, only because I don't like the idea of a world where, "Whoops, it was a mistake," gives you a license to murder people. If we just let off those who make a mistake, those who want to do something like will simply say they made one.
Killing people by mistake isn't murder. For it to be murder, you have to intend to kill them.

Negligent mistakes that lead to people dying can be manslaughter though.

Lawsuits were filed against Morton Thiokol:

https://www.nytimes.com/1987/01/29/us/engineer-who-opposed-launching-challenger-...

https://www.thecrimson.com/article/1986/12/10/morton-thiokol-getting-off-easy/

Anyway, NASA is responsible for the final approval and acceptance of everything that NASA contracts for, including designs.

  

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The Opposition
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Re: No licenses for no nothing!
Reply #27 - Aug 3rd, 2019 at 11:02am
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Jeff wrote on Aug 3rd, 2019 at 7:43am:
Killing people by mistake isn't murder. For it to be murder, you have to intend to kill them.


Right, but you do understand that a world where people don't get punished for killing people accidentally (or even get punished less) just invites real killers to feign incompetence.

Obviously the O-ring wasn't one such incident, but there's infinite potential there for people to get away with murder.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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yamcha
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Re: No licenses for no nothing!
Reply #28 - Aug 3rd, 2019 at 11:24am
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The Opposition wrote on Aug 3rd, 2019 at 11:02am:
Right, but you do understand that a world where people don't get punished for killing people accidentally (or even get punished less) just invites real killers to feign incompetence.


I don't know if you read Nassim Taleb but he is my favorite modern thinker.  In his latest book Skin in the Game, he talks about the code of Hammurabi in Babylonia.  During that time, if a house was built that collapsed and killed an occupant then the architect, not the builder would be put to death.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: No licenses for no nothing!
Reply #29 - Aug 3rd, 2019 at 11:35am
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yamcha wrote on Aug 3rd, 2019 at 11:24am:
I don't know if you read Nassim Taleb but he is my favorite modern thinker.  In his latest book Skin in the Game, he talks about the code of Hammurabi in Babylonia.  During that time, if a house was built that collapsed and killed an occupant then the architect, not the builder would be put to death.


This seems cruel but other than the fact that the builder may be the one at fault, I wouldn't mind living in that world for the assurance against murderers it provides.

If I didn't want to take the chance of being put to death, I simply wouldn't design parts for NASA. This would have the effect of making sure people who do build the new and innovative are paid a premium (which they deserve) and also make sure they're as careful as possible. I'm sure some people are being as careful as possible anyway, but I'd be happy to have that assurance.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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