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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Zero-Sum Game? (Read 617 times)
The Opposition
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Zero-Sum Game?
Aug 6th, 2019 at 10:06pm
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If resources are limited and relative success is the currency by which they are purchased, isn't it all just a zero-sum game after all?
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jacob
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Re: Zero-Sum Game?
Reply #1 - Aug 6th, 2019 at 10:10pm
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Resources aren't really that limited, innovative ways are found to stretch out resources or find new sources of them.

Consider that aluminum was once more valuable than gold, until new mines were discovered.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Zero-Sum Game?
Reply #2 - Aug 6th, 2019 at 10:26pm
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Jacob wrote on Aug 6th, 2019 at 10:10pm:
Resources aren't really that limited, innovative ways are found to stretch out resources or find new sources of them.

Consider that aluminum was once more valuable than gold, until new mines were discovered.


That's why I said if. If resources are limited.

I'm not presuming resources are limited at all.

I'm saying that in a hypothetical box with limited resources and capitalism, since whoever has the most relative success will be the ones to obtain those resources, wouldn't that be a zero-sum game? Hypothetically. Again, not presuming the universe works this way.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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yamcha
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Re: Zero-Sum Game?
Reply #3 - Aug 7th, 2019 at 1:50am
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Yeah, it ultimately would and would have no choice but to be a zero-sum game.  However, it depends on if the limit has been established and how long you live.  So like if we know for sure that we only have 300 years of resources left then It won't be a zero-sum game unless I have to live for 300 years, right?

It is possibly what is going on right now considering there seems to be a worldwide political movement to lower birthrates.

Edited:
Come to think of it, everything is a zero-sum game if played till the end.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Zero-Sum Game?
Reply #4 - Aug 7th, 2019 at 7:42am
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The Opposition wrote on Aug 6th, 2019 at 10:06pm:
If resources are limited and relative success is the currency by which they are purchased, isn't it all just a zero-sum game after all?
That's what some people have been saying for hundreds of years now. They are shortsighted people with little understanding... That's why they have been consistently wrong. Smiley

Remember when the world was running out of fuel for lighting?

Whales were getting scarce... Whale oil was a limited resource, and getting quite expensive... Poor people had to use smelly and ineffective substitutes or go without light... It looked like a zero sum game that the rich would win, since nobody else could afford the increasing cost of whale oil...

  

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Jeff
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Re: Zero-Sum Game?
Reply #5 - Aug 7th, 2019 at 7:46am
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The Opposition wrote on Aug 6th, 2019 at 10:26pm:
That's why I said if. If resources are limited.

I'm not presuming resources are limited at all.

I'm saying that in a hypothetical box with limited resources and capitalism, since whoever has the most relative success will be the ones to obtain those resources, wouldn't that be a zero-sum game? Hypothetically. Again, not presuming the universe works this way.
Just another of your absurd hypotheticals...

If pigs start to fly and lay eggs, will they be called chickens and deemed OK for Muslims to eat?

How about a hypothetical box with limited resources and some form of centrally controlled economy? Would that be a zero sum game?

Of course it would. Centrally controlled economies create zero sum situations even when resources aren't limited. Cry
  

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Little Biq Man
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Re: Zero-Sum Game?
Reply #6 - Aug 7th, 2019 at 9:21pm
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The Opposition wrote on Aug 6th, 2019 at 10:06pm:
If resources are limited and relative success is the currency by which they are purchased, isn't it all just a zero-sum game after all?


Resources are effectively unlimited.  The earth has never run out of anything due to over use by humans.  Maybe the Dodo bird, but we seem to be getting along without it.

There are huge amounts of every needed natural resource.  Those few that might actually be depleted someday, such as fossil fuels, a free economy has a built in mechanism to ensure that viable alternatives are developed.  As soon as oil becomes depleted enough that it takes greater effort and expense to get the remaining oil out of the ground, prices will go up.  When prices go up, people will innovate alternatives to oil.  At some point, the alternatives will be cheaper than the oil and the demand for oil will dry up faster than the supply of oil. 

What keeps us from ever running out is the sun, constantly pumping energy onto the earth.  That energy is converted to bio-energy by a process that came into existence through random chance.   Bio-energy was converted to fossil fuels, but fossil fuels may someday be replaced by bio-fuels, solar energy, hydro-electric energy or some as-yet undreamed of technology. 

Even when the sun burns our however many millions of years from now, by then we will have the technology to move to a new star's planetary system. 


  
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yamcha
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Re: Zero-Sum Game?
Reply #7 - Aug 7th, 2019 at 9:28pm
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Little Biq Man wrote on Aug 7th, 2019 at 9:21pm:
Even when the sun burns our however many millions of years from now, by then we will have the technology to move to a new star's planetary system. 




LBM, but where would we get the resources to do an exodus millions of light-years to other solar systems?  How much fossil fuel was there in the 1800s?  There was none since we hadn't discovered it yet, right.  You do make a good point that there are lots of untapped resources still here. 

This is probably the cheapest and most efficient so far:

  
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The Opposition
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Re: Zero-Sum Game?
Reply #8 - Aug 7th, 2019 at 10:06pm
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Little Biq Man wrote on Aug 7th, 2019 at 9:21pm:
Resources are effectively unlimited.  The earth has never run out of anything due to over use by humans.  Maybe the Dodo bird, but we seem to be getting along without it.

There are huge amounts of every needed natural resource.  Those few that might actually be depleted someday, such as fossil fuels, a free economy has a built in mechanism to ensure that viable alternatives are developed.  As soon as oil becomes depleted enough that it takes greater effort and expense to get the remaining oil out of the ground, prices will go up.  When prices go up, people will innovate alternatives to oil.  At some point, the alternatives will be cheaper than the oil and the demand for oil will dry up faster than the supply of oil. 

What keeps us from ever running out is the sun, constantly pumping energy onto the earth.  That energy is converted to bio-energy by a process that came into existence through random chance.   Bio-energy was converted to fossil fuels, but fossil fuels may someday be replaced by bio-fuels, solar energy, hydro-electric energy or some as-yet undreamed of technology. 

Even when the sun burns our however many millions of years from now, by then we will have the technology to move to a new star's planetary system. 


I agree with this entirely.

Again, that's why I said if. If resources are scarce, those with the greatest relative success will be the ones to gain access to them.

That would make it a zero-sum game, right?
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: Zero-Sum Game?
Reply #9 - Aug 8th, 2019 at 6:45am
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The Opposition wrote on Aug 7th, 2019 at 10:06pm:
I agree with this entirely.

Again, that's why I said if. If resources are scarce, those with the greatest relative success will be the ones to gain access to them.

That would make it a zero-sum game, right?
And if pigs start to fly and lay eggs, Muslims will start to call them chickens and eat them, right?
  

"Free hate speech"
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