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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Legitimacy of Titles (Read 347 times)
The Opposition
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Legitimacy of Titles
Aug 11th, 2019 at 1:26pm
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https://www.salon.com/2013/11/08/libertarians_are_very_confused_about_capitalism...

Can anyone refute this article? It claims that libertarians ought to believe in redistribution at least of property obtained illegitimately through cronyism.

Libertarians on this forum have claimed that stolen property is still the property of the original owner who it was stolen from, which would seem to make the case for the article.

What I think (which is sure to be wrong and instantly refuted) is that the article errs when it claims there is enough justification to seize money made through cronyism. Yes, we know the system is cronyistic, but to seize any one person's wealth, there would have to be incontrovertible evidence that they aggressed.

In other words, the article makes an unjustified leap from the system being not wholly capitalistic to seizing wealth.

I'm curious about where they err, however. The article claims that money made in a crony system is not legitimate property. Is this so?
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jacob
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Re: Legitimacy of Titles
Reply #1 - Aug 11th, 2019 at 1:40pm
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Apparently the author has never read Adam Smith's concept of the invisible hand, and has never heard of Kenneth Arrow & Gerard Debreu for proving it correct in the 1950's.

It's an anti-capitalist hit-piece in general.
  
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Little Biq Man
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Re: Legitimacy of Titles
Reply #2 - Aug 11th, 2019 at 1:54pm
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Ok, I completely misjudge the meaning of your subject line.  I thought this thread would be about titles of nobility as banned by our constitution.  I was looking forward to a discourse about it.

Oh, well.

Following the example of another poster *ahem* I will write as if the thread is about what I thought it was about, not what it is really about.

I think banning titles of nobility was one of the biggest mistakes the framers made.  So long as no actual authority r is attached to the titles, the ability to make people into knights and lords and so forth could have been one of the best ways to pacify the powerful and distract them from things like taxing and spending.

We should have an amendment that reads:

The Senate, with the advice and consent of the House of Representatives shall have the power to grant the following titles of nobility:  ___________, _______. _______ such grants being subject to veto by the president, such veto subject to being over-ridden by a two-thirds or greater majority of the Supreme Court.

What fun, to watch the three branches tear each other up over who gets to be "Duke of the Southwest," or "Earl of Northern California." 

I'd much rather see that than to see Trump and Pelosi colluding to rob my great-grandkids.


  
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The Opposition
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Re: Legitimacy of Titles
Reply #3 - Aug 11th, 2019 at 1:59pm
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Jacob wrote on Aug 11th, 2019 at 1:40pm:
Apparently the author has never read Adam Smith's concept of the invisible hand, and has never heard of Kenneth Arrow & Gerard Debreu for proving it correct in the 1950's.


Well I have, and I'm asking the question. Is this really the best libertarian argument against the article?: "Lol, that guy has never heard of [insert libertarian book]." What does the invisible hand have to do with gains from cronyism being legitimate or illegitimate anyway?

I'm not asking you to refute it libertarian-style (in other words, by claiming you know more and to just trust you). I'm asking you to refute it for an impartial party.

The argument bases itself on gains from cronyism being illegitimate. Are they? I think it's a leap from that to seizing those gains, anyway. But I don't have a clear picture of where the disconnect is, exactly.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jacob
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Re: Legitimacy of Titles
Reply #4 - Aug 11th, 2019 at 2:41pm
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Ah fair enough.

It does seem to conflate capitalism with mercantilism if that helps. Mercantilism was all about exploitation, whereas capitalism is supposed to be achieved through merit. That's the best I have for now.
  
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yamcha
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Re: Legitimacy of Titles
Reply #5 - Aug 11th, 2019 at 9:42pm
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Jacob wrote on Aug 11th, 2019 at 2:41pm:
Ah fair enough.
.


He doesn't believe in that and is against the pursuit of it.
  
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yamcha
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Re: Legitimacy of Titles
Reply #6 - Aug 11th, 2019 at 9:53pm
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I wonder how land that has been abandoned or forsaken be dealt with.  New owners keepers, losers weepers I guess
  
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yamcha
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Re: Legitimacy of Titles
Reply #7 - Aug 12th, 2019 at 12:53am
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I wonder if Jeff is OK.  Haven't seen him around.  He is one of our older members and I sure hope nothing bad has befallen him or that he hasn't taken ill.  Hopefully, he is just out enjoying a weekend trip.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Legitimacy of Titles
Reply #8 - Aug 13th, 2019 at 8:17am
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The Opposition wrote on Aug 11th, 2019 at 1:26pm:
https://www.salon.com/2013/11/08/libertarians_are_very_confused_about_capitalism...

Can anyone refute this article? It claims that libertarians ought to believe in redistribution at least of property obtained illegitimately through cronyism.

Libertarians on this forum have claimed that stolen property is still the property of the original owner who it was stolen from, which would seem to make the case for the article.

What I think (which is sure to be wrong and instantly refuted) is that the article errs when it claims there is enough justification to seize money made through cronyism. Yes, we know the system is cronyistic, but to seize any one person's wealth, there would have to be incontrovertible evidence that they aggressed.

In other words, the article makes an unjustified leap from the system being not wholly capitalistic to seizing wealth.

I'm curious about where they err, however. The article claims that money made in a crony system is not legitimate property. Is this so?
Stolen property should be returned to the legitimate owner if the legitimate owner can be found.

I bought my property and have a recorded deed to prove it. Smiley

Should all the corporate welfare given to Boeing and Tesla be recovered and given back to the taxpayers it once belonged to? Sure. Good luck with that. It won't happen.

Are you trying to get me talking about legal taxation again? Or just about the legitimately authorized purposes for which tax revenue may be spent?
  

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Jeff
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Re: Legitimacy of Titles
Reply #9 - Aug 13th, 2019 at 8:22am
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Jacob wrote on Aug 11th, 2019 at 1:40pm:
Apparently the author has never read Adam Smith's concept of the invisible hand, and has never heard of Kenneth Arrow & Gerard Debreu for proving it correct in the 1950's.

It's an anti-capitalist hit-piece in general.
Enough said, thanks.
  

"Free hate speech"
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