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The Opposition
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Respecting the Rights of Others
Aug 11th, 2019 at 3:50pm
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Is respecting the rights of others a necessary condition for one's having rights himself?

Libertarians say no. But I say the question of who has rights would get a lot easier if the answer to this question was yes.

Confining a murderer in a prison would no longer be a violation of rights what must be worked around with reparations. You can still believe we should treat murderers humanely just as you can still believe animals should be treated humanely, and if you're willing to pay people to confine a murderer so he doesn't threaten others and isn't gunned down, you're welcome to do so.

In a reparation-only punishment system, people would be effectively free to steal as long as they blew the money immediately. They'd be free to kill, too, as long as they had nothing for anyone to take in reparations. They might be hurting their chances of gainful employment but when you can kill and steal, you don't really need gainful employment.

It's a repeating motif of freedom that the murderer should be punished only lightly (say, five years in prison, with time off for good behaviour) but someone who exacts retributive justice should be punished excessively. I admit my moral compass is usually wrong but this seems backwards to me.

This is the reason for my answer to the question of the man whose wife was murdered and subsequently told that the murderer owed him 73¢ for his wife's life, and to leave the murderer alone on account of how the murderer couldn't pay and that was that.

I say the man should kill the murderer anyway. Let him pay 73¢ to the murderer (which the murderer already owed him) and let that be that.

In reality this won't work because, in reality, the philosophy of light justice for murderers excludes retributive murders.

So I suppose I admit my thinking is backwards (as always) and I'll just agree that murderers have rights that absolutely can't be violated.

I wonder if this is because libertarianism works a lot like the natural pecking order, and exists to reinforce it. Those who murder without provocation are at the top, so their rights are worth more, and it's a worse wrong to violate them. The docile people at the bottom who would never murder should be tossed 73¢ to pacify them (if everyone else feels like it) and forgotten about. But if they violate the pecking order, they should be put in their place by whatever means necessary.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jacob
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Re: Respecting the Rights of Others
Reply #1 - Aug 11th, 2019 at 3:53pm
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This reminds me of the Shariah Law stipulation that murder is a dispute.
  
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yamcha
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Re: Respecting the Rights of Others
Reply #2 - Aug 11th, 2019 at 9:24pm
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JESUS CHRIST!  More bitching about Libertarians and having no rights again Oppo?  And more Law of the Jungle again?

No death penalty for murder cheapens the value of life.  So let's reduce it to a silly example.  Let's say Jacob comes into your house and beats you into a coma then he rapes and kills your wife and kids and all he gets is a $50 fine.  Sure does give value huh?

No life = no freedom = no rights = no nothing.

The real problem here is that you keep living with your victimhood mentality and project it to every area of life.

You always say that throughout your life you have been treated like shit.  Now, why is that?  And why is it that I am not treated like shit but like royalty everywhere I go?  You defenders of failure are baffling.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Respecting the Rights of Others
Reply #3 - Aug 11th, 2019 at 9:30pm
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yamcha wrote on Aug 11th, 2019 at 9:24pm:
You always say that throughout your life you have been treated like shit.  Now, why is that?


Because I deserve it, obviously. I'm a terrible person and I never said I wasn't. (I also never attempted to cast shame on people treating me like shit; if you're getting that then you're projecting.) Now that I've admitted that can we move on to discussing the topic?

yamcha wrote on Aug 11th, 2019 at 9:24pm:
No death penalty for murder cheapens the value of life.  So let's reduce it to a silly example.  Let's say Jacob comes into your house and beats you into a coma then he rapes and kills your wife and kids and all he gets is a $50 fine.


That, as far as I understand, is the libertarian way, though it may be more than $50, depending on how much my wife's and kids' lives were actually worth. Want some Rothbard quotes that support this position?
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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yamcha
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Re: Respecting the Rights of Others
Reply #4 - Aug 11th, 2019 at 9:37pm
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By your own admittance, you are or were a dick so you deserve to get treated like shit, then why are you always bitching about having no rights?

I don't know what the Libertarian way is.  It is just another "ism" that currently matches my thinking the most.  I request that you speak in more a more layman dumbed-down manner for lower IQ people like me and others.

So if you could shorten your original post to just one question that what would it be?  I mean the real question and not this rights stuff.  The real point oppo.
« Last Edit: Aug 12th, 2019 at 1:28am by yamcha »  
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Jacob
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Re: Respecting the Rights of Others
Reply #5 - Aug 11th, 2019 at 9:41pm
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For what its worth, I say YES.

Government doesn't have the power to dispense rights, only to preserve them.

Respecting the rights of others is the admittance of the contract of consequences, if not the the social contract.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Respecting the Rights of Others
Reply #6 - Aug 12th, 2019 at 10:49am
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yamcha wrote on Aug 11th, 2019 at 9:37pm:
By your own admittance, you are or were a dick so you deserve to get treated like shit, then why are you always bitching about having no rights?


I try not to be nasty to anyone.

yamcha wrote on Aug 11th, 2019 at 9:37pm:
So if you could shorten your original post to just one question that what would it be?


Just read the first sentence of the original post then. The rest isn't all that necessary.

I only went into detail because I dislike reparation-only punishment, which is what Rothbard proscribes.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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The Opposition
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Re: Respecting the Rights of Others
Reply #7 - Aug 12th, 2019 at 10:51am
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Jacob wrote on Aug 11th, 2019 at 9:41pm:
For what its worth, I say YES.

Government doesn't have the power to dispense rights, only to preserve them.

Respecting the rights of others is the admittance of the contract of consequences, if not the the social contract.


So how would you say someone who goes around just killing people willy-nilly can be treated? Rothbard would say sue him and take some money. Most posters here would agree that you can only kill him if he's directly and immediately threatening you.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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yamcha
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Re: Respecting the Rights of Others
Reply #8 - Aug 12th, 2019 at 11:02am
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Don't you think the situation depends on whether it is under common, civil, statutory or are we talking jungle law?
  
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Jacob
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Re: Respecting the Rights of Others
Reply #9 - Aug 12th, 2019 at 11:14am
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KissThe Opposition wrote on Aug 12th, 2019 at 10:51am:
So how would you say someone who goes around just killing people willy-nilly can be treated? Rothbard would say sue him and take some money. Most posters here would agree that you can only kill him if he's directly and immediately threatening you.


I would definitely kill him in self defense, but if he can be captured, why not make him serve life in a private prison?

Suing is not going to stop him from killing willy nilly at all.
  
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