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Jeff
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The Jones Act
Aug 15th, 2019 at 6:35pm
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Because it's so typical of "progressive" government actions, and so insanely bad, and so incredible that it still exists...

https://email.cato.org/lee-presses-the-case-for-jones-act-reform?ecid=ACsprvtsmv...

Lee is one of us libertarians who ran as a Republican so as not to be saddled with LP BS and the Libertarian stigma of being unelectable.
  

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Jeff
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Re: The Jones Act
Reply #1 - Nov 8th, 2019 at 7:58am
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The stupidity continues:

https://reason.com/2019/11/07/stupid-federal-shipping-regulations-will-prevent-a...

Congress could fix this problem quite rapidly.

From the article:

"Sen. Mike Lee (R–Utah) has introduced a bill to repeal the Jones Act, and President Donald Trump once even offered tepid support for the idea—but that was before lawmakers from shipbuilding states convinced him it was a bad idea.

The end result of this ludicrous pile of protectionism is that Alaskan natural gas will be sent to Asia while Alaskans pay to import their fuel from Russia and elsewhere."
  

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kaz
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Re: The Jones Act
Reply #2 - Nov 8th, 2019 at 9:18am
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Jeff wrote on Nov 8th, 2019 at 7:58am:
The stupidity continues:

https://reason.com/2019/11/07/stupid-federal-shipping-regulations-will-prevent-a...

Congress could fix this problem quite rapidly.

From the article:

"Sen. Mike Lee (R–Utah) has introduced a bill to repeal the Jones Act, and President Donald Trump once even offered tepid support for the idea—but that was before lawmakers from shipbuilding states convinced him it was a bad idea.

The end result of this ludicrous pile of protectionism is that Alaskan natural gas will be sent to Asia while Alaskans pay to import their fuel from Russia and elsewhere."


The Jones Act is yet another act of supporting unions over jobs and another case that Republicans don't really support small government or freedom and they aren't actually fiscally conservative.  It's total bull shit
  

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ahhell
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Re: The Jones Act
Reply #3 - Nov 8th, 2019 at 9:48am
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Its not unions, crony capitalists as well.  One of the problems with democracy is the impact of things that have a concentrated benefit but diffused harm.   The Jones act really helps one small company and its employees a lot.  It hurts pretty much every other America a very small amount.
  
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kaz
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Re: The Jones Act
Reply #4 - Nov 8th, 2019 at 9:54am
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ahhell wrote on Nov 8th, 2019 at 9:48am:
Its not unions, crony capitalists as well.  One of the problems with democracy is the impact of things that have a concentrated benefit but diffused harm.   The Jones act really helps one small company and its employees a lot.  It hurts pretty much every other America a very small amount. 


There's no doubt the Jones act was created for unions.  It was specifically created to force shippers to be union shops.  It says that all ships that sail from a port in the United States to a destination in the United States must be US flagged.  US flagged ships are required to be unionized.

Of course the shippers were smarter than they were.  They stopped sailing from US port to US port directly and are foreign flagged.  If you sail from Miami to New York, you will make a stop in the Bahamas.  It's not an accident.  Even Disney ships are foreign flagged.  The only exception really is Hawaii where it's not practical to sail to Mexico and back.

And it's the way of our government, ideology over benefit.  It's like the laws taxing repatriation of money.  Both are just horrible in actual effect, but the government won't kill them.

I'm not clear how you're making a crony capitalism argument on this one.  Can you be more specific what you're referring to?  I'm not disagreeing at this point, I just don't really know what you're talking about and you weren't very specific
  

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The Opposition
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Re: The Jones Act
Reply #5 - Nov 8th, 2019 at 10:30am
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Just out of curiosity, why aren't there any US-built, US-owned, US-manned ships?
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
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Jeff
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Re: The Jones Act
Reply #6 - Nov 8th, 2019 at 10:42am
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The Opposition wrote on Nov 8th, 2019 at 10:30am:
Just out of curiosity, why aren't there any US-built, US-owned, US-manned ships?
In short, unions and regulations made it too expensive to build them. U.S. shipyards became uncompetitive in the world market almost as soon as the Jones Act was passed to protect unionized U.S. shipwrights, and unionized U.S. sailors have mostly priced themselves out of the market too.
  

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kaz
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Re: The Jones Act
Reply #7 - Nov 8th, 2019 at 10:43am
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The Opposition wrote on Nov 8th, 2019 at 10:30am:
Just out of curiosity, why aren't there any US-built, US-owned, US-manned ships?


I don't know what you're talking about with no US-build or US owned.  Though US ship building has declined, and that's fine.  Manufacturing is low margin, it doesn't drive our economy.  Disney for example though owns a butt load of ships.  However, US manned?  That's the real question.  Read the post right before your post where I specifically answered that
  

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Jeff
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Re: The Jones Act
Reply #8 - Nov 8th, 2019 at 10:43am
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kaz wrote on Nov 8th, 2019 at 9:54am:
There's no doubt the Jones act was created for unions.  It was specifically created to force shippers to be union shops.  It says that all ships that sail from a port in the United States to a destination in the United States must be US flagged.  US flagged ships are required to be unionized.

Of course the shippers were smarter than they were.  They stopped sailing from US port to US port directly and are foreign flagged.  If you sail from Miami to New York, you will make a stop in the Bahamas.  It's not an accident.  Even Disney ships are foreign flagged.  The only exception really is Hawaii where it's not practical to sail to Mexico and back.

And it's the way of our government, ideology over benefit.  It's like the laws taxing repatriation of money.  Both are just horrible in actual effect, but the government won't kill them.

I'm not clear how you're making a crony capitalism argument on this one.  Can you be more specific what you're referring to?  I'm not disagreeing at this point, I just don't really know what you're talking about and you weren't very specific
I agree, I can't see the crony capitalism connection either.
  

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Jeff
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Re: The Jones Act
Reply #9 - Nov 8th, 2019 at 10:46am
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kaz wrote on Nov 8th, 2019 at 10:43am:
Disney owns a butt load of ships.
Can they transport oil, or coal, or LNG? Is their purpose to take people from one U.S. port to another? Is that what they actually do? No to all.
  

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