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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Deficit Spending, Debt & Printing (Read 1052 times)
Jeff
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Re: Deficit Spending, Debt & Printing
Reply #50 - Nov 1st, 2019 at 4:12pm
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kaz wrote on Nov 1st, 2019 at 1:01pm:
Funny, but it's more

Get Trump
Get Trump
Get Trump
Get Trump
Why did they wait so long? How could they have thought waiting the best strategy? Aren't they trying to portray themselves as leaders?

Alas, they prove themselves reactionaries.

Which committee is responsible for this sloppy planning?
  

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BobK71
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Re: What if *ONLY* the Fed is Counterfeiting?
Reply #51 - Nov 7th, 2019 at 5:02pm
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 8th, 2019 at 9:25pm:
A piece of fiat currency is worthless, but a piece of currency that's been sweat and bled for is scarce by definition.

It is only by mixing the fiat dollars in with the circulating dollars that the fiat dollars gain value.

The rub is that the fiat dollars must be deliberately made indistinguishable from - hidden among - the dollars that have been worked for, because if they were not, no one would take one that had not been. At least, I know I wouldn't.

Counterfeiting?

Well, kinda.


In a truly free market economy, you can make a case that money that has been earned by sweat and tears usually retains value.

The trouble is that we're not living in such an economy, not by a long shot.  (Don't believe the common narrative about 'freedom' in the Western world -- we're free only in comparison by degree to Russia, Zimbabwe, China, etc.  We're not actually free.)

I just threw out a beautiful map-book set of Manhattan that I picked up cheap at a flea market some years ago.  It's almost a work of art.  Obviously this was someone's labor of love, and obviously some rich New Yorker paid a handsome price for it originally.  But it has less use for me than the space it makes after I chuck it.

If we suppose the rich New Yorker was wealthy because of the distortions created by the central planning of money (rather than valuations based on free supply and demand,) our economy never had the ability to create this art work in the first place, but for the Fed's creation of money and channeling it to favored groups.  Since this system is a recipe for creating useless things at great effort, does it not cheapen that effort?

So, my view is that effort is not an objective gauge of value.
  
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SkyChief
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Re: What if *ONLY* the Fed is Counterfeiting?
Reply #52 - Nov 7th, 2019 at 5:31pm
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BobK71 wrote on Nov 7th, 2019 at 5:02pm:
In a truly free market economy, you can make a case that money that has been earned by sweat and tears usually retains value.
Right. That's why gold and silver served as money for thousands of years.

These metals represented the labor and resources to extract them from the Earth, refine them, and coin them.

But then governments wanted to expand, and make War, and there wasn't enough gold in the Treasury to pay for the expansion and Wars. 

So they invented the Federal Reserve Cartel which circumvents the need for physical gold to coin real money!

The Fed had the authorization and power print "Federal Reserve Notes", which are nothing more than a receipt for a claim check on an IOU!   Grin

Progressive/totalitarian president Woodrow Wilson signed the Federal Reserve Act into law on Dec. 23rd, 1913.

It proved to be the cleverest banking scam in the history of all mankind.
  

Governments will always devise ways to deprive an honest man of his money or property, and claim that it's legal.
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Jeff
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Re: What if *ONLY* the Fed is Counterfeiting?
Reply #53 - Nov 7th, 2019 at 5:40pm
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SkyChief wrote on Nov 7th, 2019 at 5:31pm:
Right. That's why gold and silver served as money for thousands of years.

These metals represented the labor and resources to extract them from the Earth, refine them, and coin them.

But then governments wanted to expand, and make War, and there wasn't enough gold in the Treasury to pay for the expansion and Wars. 

So they invented the Federal Reserve Cartel which circumvents the need for physical gold to coin real money!

The Fed had the authorization and power print "Federal Reserve Notes", which are nothing more than a receipt for a claim check on an IOU!   Grin

It was the cleverest banking scam in the history of mankind.
Great post Chief, but it wasn't a "banking" scam, it was a government scam that just happened to enrich the bankers and the cronies of both bankers and government elites.

Edit: Sheesh! Good ting all round I don't be in Romania!


  

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kaz
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Re: What if *ONLY* the Fed is Counterfeiting?
Reply #54 - Nov 7th, 2019 at 8:09pm
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BobK71 wrote on Nov 7th, 2019 at 5:02pm:
In a truly free market economy, you can make a case that money that has been earned by sweat and tears usually retains value.

The trouble is that we're not living in such an economy, not by a long shot.  (Don't believe the common narrative about 'freedom' in the Western world -- we're free only in comparison by degree to Russia, Zimbabwe, China, etc.  We're not actually free.)

I just threw out a beautiful map-book set of Manhattan that I picked up cheap at a flea market some years ago.  It's almost a work of art.  Obviously this was someone's labor of love, and obviously some rich New Yorker paid a handsome price for it originally.  But it has less use for me than the space it makes after I chuck it.

If we suppose the rich New Yorker was wealthy because of the distortions created by the central planning of money (rather than valuations based on free supply and demand,) our economy never had the ability to create this art work in the first place, but for the Fed's creation of money and channeling it to favored groups.  Since this system is a recipe for creating useless things at great effort, does it not cheapen that effort?

So, my view is that effort is not an objective gauge of value.


There is a difference between something correlating with value and being a direct measure of it
  

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The Opposition
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Re: What if *ONLY* the Fed is Counterfeiting?
Reply #55 - Nov 7th, 2019 at 9:32pm
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BobK71 wrote on Nov 7th, 2019 at 5:02pm:
So, my view is that effort is not an objective gauge of value.


No: I didn't say it was.

I said that currency that is earned (backed, if you will) by effort is inherently scarce. The rest followed from that.

I didn't say your map was valuable. I simply said that currency that must be earned through blood, tears, and sweat is not fiat. There is not infinite labour. Currency could, therefore, be "backed" so to speak, by labour.

Didn't say this would make it valuable. I just said it wouldn't be completely fiat.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: What if *ONLY* the Fed is Counterfeiting?
Reply #56 - Nov 8th, 2019 at 8:44am
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The Opposition wrote on Nov 7th, 2019 at 9:32pm:
I said that currency that is earned (backed, if you will) by effort is inherently scarce. The rest followed from that.

That's one of your favorite tactics, isn't it? To make a facially absurd claim, and then follow it with almost plausible sounding ideas that are clearly wrong without the support of your initial absurd claim...
  

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kaz
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Re: What if *ONLY* the Fed is Counterfeiting?
Reply #57 - Nov 8th, 2019 at 9:30am
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The Opposition wrote on Nov 7th, 2019 at 9:32pm:
No: I didn't say it was.

I said that currency that is earned (backed, if you will) by effort is inherently scarce. The rest followed from that.

I didn't say your map was valuable. I simply said that currency that must be earned through blood, tears, and sweat is not fiat. There is not infinite labour. Currency could, therefore, be "backed" so to speak, by labour.

Didn't say this would make it valuable. I just said it wouldn't be completely fiat.


How do you back a currency with "labor?"  What does that even mean?

Currencies are either not backed by anything (fiat) or they are backed by an exchange traded commodity (e.g., gold).  I'm not aware of any currency backed any other way.  Explain what that means
  

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kaz
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Re: What if *ONLY* the Fed is Counterfeiting?
Reply #58 - Nov 8th, 2019 at 9:34am
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SkyChief wrote on Nov 7th, 2019 at 5:31pm:
But then governments wanted to expand, and make War, and there wasn't enough gold in the Treasury to pay for the expansion and Wars. 

So they invented the Federal Reserve Cartel which circumvents the need for physical gold to coin real money!


I explained this to you before, you're missing a principle.  You seem to have in your mind that gold is $35 an ounce.  That is something that is decreed somewhere.  Actually the nominal link between gold and money is arbitrary.

The key is fixing gold to a currency.  That keeps the government from stealing from the people because if they do, the people cash in their currency for the gold and the government collapses.  You aren't getting the money government stole from you back.  You can only stop them from stealing more of it.

The issue with fighting things like endless wars is that since government can't steal from the people, they would have to tax sufficiently to fund the wars.  They couldn't run big deficits.  The people wouldn't go along with that.  That is what stops them from fighting endless wars, not that they can't find more gold.

Your principle is right, just your application of it is wrong.  This isn't an opinion, it's just how commodity backed currencies work
  

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Jeff
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Re: What if *ONLY* the Fed is Counterfeiting?
Reply #59 - Nov 8th, 2019 at 10:16am
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kaz wrote on Nov 8th, 2019 at 9:34am:
I explained this to you before, you're missing a principle.  You seem to have in your mind that gold is $35 an ounce.  That is something that is decreed somewhere.  Actually the nominal link between gold and money is arbitrary.

The key is fixing gold to a currency.  That keeps the government from stealing from the people because if they do, the people cash in their currency for the gold and the government collapses.  You aren't getting the money government stole from you back.  You can only stop them from stealing more of it.

The issue with fighting things like endless wars is that since government can't steal from the people, they would have to tax sufficiently to fund the wars.  They couldn't run big deficits.  The people wouldn't go along with that.  That is what stops them from fighting endless wars, not that they can't find more gold.

Your principle is right, just your application of it is wrong.  This isn't an opinion, it's just how commodity backed currencies work
Good post kaz.
  

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