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Little Biq Man
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The Harm Government Does vs. the Harm Government Prevents
Aug 25th, 2019 at 9:06pm
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I almost included government itself in my OP about the four worst influences on human history.  I still feel I may have erred as Socialism and slavery would be impossible without government and anti-Semitism was just another bias until government took it as official policy.

As a libertarian, I do believe in government that does nothing but protect the rights of its citizens without interfering with the rights of non-citizens.  But, since there has never been such a government or even close, I have to look at whether the benefits outweigh the detriments.  Most statists cite government's protection of us from the most dire of consequences.  Invasion by other nations, roaming bands of bandits, being poisoned by unregulated foods, constant manslaughter by unlicensed quacks and the like.  We must trade our freedom for these protections, the statists say.  But it is worth it?

No roving gang ever forced the unwilling to wear its colors, they regularly turn people down.  No roving gang ever laid siege to a city and starved the inhabitants out.  It was no roving gang that invented automatic weapons, poison gas weapons, nuclear missiles and dirty bombs.  That was government.

Unlicensed quack did not perform the Tuskegee Syphilis study or the MK Ultra project.  Unlicensed quacks did not infect blankets with smallpox and give them to Native Americans trying to protect the land they owned.

Absent government, would we be invaded?  Very likely.  But any invasion would be done by forces sent by a government, so protection from invasion cannot be an argument for the benefits of government.

Any thinking and honest person has to admit that government has always done far more harm than good.  It is the libertarian dream to change that.
 

  
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The Opposition
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Re: The Harm Government Does vs. the Harm Government Prevents
Reply #1 - Aug 25th, 2019 at 9:45pm
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Little Biq Man wrote on Aug 25th, 2019 at 9:06pm:
Absent [gun ownership], would we be [shot]?  Very likely.  But any [shooting] would be done by [gun owners] so protection from [being shot] cannot be an argument for the benefits of [gun ownership].


You... did not think that through.

Little Biq Man wrote on Aug 25th, 2019 at 9:06pm:
Absent [gun ownership]Any thinking and honest person has to admit that government has always done far more harm than good.  It is the libertarian dream to change that.


Just out of curiosity, what about a hardworking person who has never received redistribution but has nonetheless only had rights respected by the government and only had rights removed elucidated to never be possessed in the first place by libertarians?

The government has done nothing but good for me. They respect my (non-existent) rights even though they don't have to. They give me more freedom than I could ever want. There are five four states where there is no restriction on exotic animal ownership.

https://www.turpentinecreek.org/current-big-cat-laws/
Quote:
In the United States, 50 states have 50 sets of laws and there is no direct federal law that prohibits dangerous exotic animals as pets. Alabama, Wisconsin, North Carolina, and Nevada have NO laws, allowing citizens to own whatever they want and however, they want.


Libertarians have only tried to take my stuff, impose restrictions on my behaviour, and tell me I don't have rights.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Little Biq Man
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Re: The Harm Government Does vs. the Harm Government Prevents
Reply #2 - Aug 25th, 2019 at 10:00pm
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Little Biq Man wrote Today at 9:06pm:
Quote:
Absent [gun ownership], would we be [shot]?  Very likely.  But any [shooting] would be done by [gun owners] so protection from [being shot] cannot be an argument for the benefits of [gun ownership].


The Opposition wrote on Aug 25th, 2019 at 9:45pm:
You... did not think that through.


An excellent way to make a point.

However, your point is less valid because I have never advocated forcing [gun ownership] on anyone.

Quote:
Just out of curiosity, what about a hardworking person who has never received redistribution but has nonetheless only had rights respected by the government and only had rights removed elucidated to never be possessed in the first place by libertarians?


Thanks for the word of the day!

Can you give an example or a right libertarians have elucidated to not be possessed by humans?

Quote:
The government has done nothing but good for me. They respect my (non-existent) rights even though they don't have to. They give me more freedom than I could ever want. There are five four states where there is no restriction on exotic animal ownership.

https://www.turpentinecreek.org/current-big-cat-laws/

Libertarians have only tried to take my stuff, impose restrictions on my behaviour, and tell me I don't have rights.


Then they are not real libertarians, nor likely real Scotsmen, either.


  
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The Opposition
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Re: The Harm Government Does vs. the Harm Government Prevents
Reply #3 - Aug 25th, 2019 at 10:10pm
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Little Biq Man wrote on Aug 25th, 2019 at 10:00pm:
However, your point is less valid because I have never advocated forcing [gun ownership] on anyone.


And I don't advocate forcing government on anyone. Let them live on the seastead, or let a partition be made.

Don't take my government away from me. My government protects me from libertarians, who think they can shoot me on sight because I have no rights.

Little Biq Man wrote on Aug 25th, 2019 at 10:00pm:
Can you give an example or a right libertarians have elucidated to not be possessed by humans?


Jeff wrote on Apr 27th, 2019 at 7:14am:
I've changed my mind, you should never be permitted to have a tiger!


RubyHypatia wrote on Jun 25th, 2018 at 5:41pm:
Opp, yes it does matter what a gun or a dog or a tiger is good for.  There's a reason tigers are outlawed as pets, while dogs are not.  And there's a reason we're allowed to own guns.  The benefit of owning a tiger isn't worth the risk.  There is no benefit to owning a tiger like there is to owning a dog or gun.


SkyChief wrote on Dec 1st, 2017 at 1:26pm:
The reason(s) for owning a gun is quite different than the reason to own a tiger or a chicken.   I'm saddened to be labeled a rabid, selfish, maniac.

There is only one absolute right that each and every person on the planet has:   self-defense.    All living things have a right to self-defense.  Tigers have it - even chickens have it.  (If you've ever witnessed a cockfight, you have seen self-defense of chickens)

If government were to ban guns, it would take away our means of self-defense, and that would be immoral.   If government were to ban (ownership of) tigers, no rights were violated - it is not immoral.

Libertarianism is based on self-ownership of the individual. It means a person's wealth and property belongs to him/her  -  not the government.

You accept some degree of risk getting out of bed.  A little more risk once you leave the house. Risk goes up considerably when you drive your car.   Life is full of risks.  Don't worry if I'm carrying my gun.  If you don't physically attack me, I promise not to shoot (at) you.   Scout's honor.


Little Biq Man wrote on Jul 25th, 2019 at 11:07am:
The Opposition wrote on Jul 25th, 2019 at 9:33am:
Life isn't supposed to be fair. Fairness is not a worthy goal to pursue.

Respecting rights is the goal, and it's not supposed to be fair. You can never say, "Well, if he's getting [rights], then shouldn't that other one get [rights]?"

No. Stop. Totally authoritarian thinking.


I know you're kidding, but that's right.


merkelstan wrote on Feb 28th, 2017 at 11:15pm:
Rothbard's criteria makes more sense, because not only does the entity have to demonstrate conscious thought, it needs to understand the concept of rights and demand them for itself.

Amusingly, The Opposition would fail that test.  I still can't get-over what a mental trainwreck his (her?) "concept" of rights was.


Jeff wrote on Feb 24th, 2018 at 7:49am:
You have no more rights than an animal, because your understanding of rights is at the level of a predatory animal.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: The Harm Government Does vs. the Harm Government Prevents
Reply #4 - Aug 26th, 2019 at 7:38am
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Little Biq Man wrote on Aug 25th, 2019 at 9:06pm:
As a libertarian, I do believe in government that does nothing but protect the rights of its citizens without interfering with the rights of non-citizens.  But, since there has never been such a government or even close, I have to look at whether the benefits outweigh the detriments. 
The government created by the Constitution of the U.S. was very close to that ideal.

I know you think the entire effort was wasted because the slave owning aristocrats who controlled the slave state governments would not give up their slaves, but that has nothing to do with the ideals of the Declaration and the Constitution. The slave states were admitted into the union as slave states for reasons of realpolitik, not because the Constitution was designed to preserve slavery.


  

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Jeff
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Re: The Harm Government Does vs. the Harm Government Prevents
Reply #5 - Aug 26th, 2019 at 7:40am
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Little Biq Man wrote on Aug 25th, 2019 at 9:06pm:
Any thinking and honest person has to admit that government has always done far more harm than good.  It is the libertarian dream to change that.
Anarchists like you dream about ending government completely.

Any thinking and honest person has to admit that anarchy has always done more harm than any halfway good government, primarily because anarchy leads to tyrannical governments that do the sorts of harm libertarian's all deplore.
  

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SkyChief
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Re: The Harm Government Does vs. the Harm Government Prevents
Reply #6 - Aug 26th, 2019 at 12:43pm
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Little Biq Man wrote on Aug 25th, 2019 at 9:06pm:
Any thinking and honest person has to admit that government has always done far more harm than good.  It is the libertarian dream to change that.
In the early days of this country, government was limited to very specific functions.

Gradually over time, more and more powers were granted to government.  It became stronger and started throwing its weight around.  Income Taxes went up from 2% in 1913 to 32% last year.  Shocked

Today, we have a behemoth of a government which is continually expanding in scope and power.

The US Military is larger than all the rest of the world's military COMBINED.  Naturally, there is a propensity to (mis)use the Military for intervention into foreign conflicts.  The founders explicitly warned us NOT to do this.

Today, our lawmakers (Congress) seem to have a singular mission:

Pass Laws which make the government stronger, and the People weaker. 

"Any time power is granted to the government, it is done so at the expense of the liberty of the governed."  - SkyChief
  

Governments will always devise ways to deprive an honest man of his money or property, and claim that it's legal.
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Jeff
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Re: The Harm Government Does vs. the Harm Government Prevents
Reply #7 - Aug 26th, 2019 at 2:55pm
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SkyChief wrote on Aug 26th, 2019 at 12:43pm:
In the early days of this country, government was limited to very specific functions.

Gradually over time, more and more powers were granted to government.
Not really. The additional powers were usurped.
  

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Jeff
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Re: The Harm Government Does vs. the Harm Government Prevents
Reply #8 - Aug 26th, 2019 at 6:58pm
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Here's good news about some good that government can do:

https://reason.com/2019/08/23/houston-narcotics-cop-who-instigated-a-deadly-drug...

They need to ditch the "sovereign immunity BS and do it more often. Smiley
  

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AlayneLeung
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Re: The Harm Government Does vs. the Harm Government Prevents
Reply #9 - Aug 26th, 2019 at 7:36pm
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Does the USA Federal Government discriminate against hubeings of Jewish (and Jehovah's Witnesses) religion(s) , because:

I remember about two decades ago, USA Federal Employees can get disproportionately more pay if they labor during Sundays, because Sundays are recognized by numerous Christians as Sabbath days; but USA Federal Employees can't get disproportionately more pay if they labor during Saturdays, because Saturdays are recognized by numerous Jews (and also Jehovah's Witnesses? ) as Sabbath days?
  
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