Libertarian's Forum
Libertarian Forum to discuss politics and free market economics.
Libertarian's ForumLibertarian's ForumFreedom Forum › The 4 Tiers Of Justice
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 ... 3 4 [5] 6 7  Send TopicPrint
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) The 4 Tiers Of Justice (Read 1730 times)
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 50032
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: The 4 Tiers Of Justice
Reply #40 - Aug 31st, 2019 at 2:39pm
Print Post  
Little Biq Man wrote on Aug 31st, 2019 at 2:18pm:
Wait, I thought you were arguing that they already are.

WTF?
No, I wasn't. Our volunteer fire department is not a business. Neither is it an arm of government.
  

"Free hate speech"
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 50032
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: The 4 Tiers Of Justice
Reply #41 - Aug 31st, 2019 at 2:42pm
Print Post  
Little Biq Man wrote on Aug 31st, 2019 at 2:18pm:
I guess you would have to read that contract to find out.

Smart people will pay a little extra to make sure that their house will be protected from a fire that starts in their neighbor's house.  The Jeff's of the world will be taken advantage of by flim-flam artists in the private sector just as they are taken advantage of now by flim-flam artists in government.


When multiple houses are on fire, the firefighters have to prioritize.  At least in a private system, they won't automatically prioritize the Mayor's house while letting yours burn (unless you hired a scam fire department, in which case what's the difference?)
Fine, you want all fire departments to be private businesses because you think any government involvement in anything is automatically anti-liberty... In fact, you think any government at all is anti-liberty.

You are wrong. Anarchy is not a path to maximizing individual liberty.
  

"Free hate speech"
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
The Opposition
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Online

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 11793
Joined: Apr 30th, 2014
Re: The 4 Tiers Of Justice
Reply #42 - Aug 31st, 2019 at 3:07pm
Print Post  
Little Biq Man wrote on Aug 31st, 2019 at 2:18pm:
(unless you hired a scam fire department, in which case what's the difference?)


All fire departments will be scams for the same reason HMOs are scams. It's much more profitable to take money now and simply break promises later than to invest in keeping that promise. It's so much more profitable that scammers can push legitimate fire departments out of business.

The free market only works against this when customers can tell with immediacy whether they are being scammed or not. The further off the realisation of the scam is, the more certain it is to be a scam. When at last it's revealed, the fire department will go out of business, relieve itself of its losses, and reincorporate as a new business, ready to scam again. (Imagine if you could just change my name and do that!)

This is not to say that all houses will burn down in pure capitalism or everyone will die of stomach cancer.

In pure capitalism, the thing to do will be to invest in making sure these things don't happen, not buying worthless promises in case they do. And I also imagine that suing people because their shoddy wiring cost you your house too, will be a thing.

The only factor that would stop this from working well would be a populace that continues to get scammed and never learns from it, always happily shelling out money now for the next promise which is guaranteed to be empty.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 50032
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: The 4 Tiers Of Justice
Reply #43 - Aug 31st, 2019 at 3:20pm
Print Post  
The Opposition wrote on Aug 31st, 2019 at 3:07pm:
All fire departments will be scams for the same reason HMOs are scams. It's much more profitable to take money now and simply break promises later than to invest in keeping that promise. It's so much more profitable that scammers can push legitimate fire departments out of business.

The free market only works against this when customers can tell with immediacy whether they are being scammed or not. The further off the realisation of the scam is, the more certain it is to be a scam. When at last it's revealed, the fire department will go out of business, relieve itself of its losses, and reincorporate as a new business, ready to scam again. (Imagine if you could just change my name and do that!)

This is not to say that all houses will burn down in pure capitalism or everyone will die of stomach cancer.

In pure capitalism, the thing to do will be to invest in making sure these things don't happen, not buying worthless promises in case they do. And I also imagine that suing people because their shoddy wiring cost you your house too, will be a thing.

The only factor that would stop this from working well would be a populace that continues to get scammed and never learns from it, always happily shelling out money now for the next promise which is guaranteed to be empty.
Free markets actually work quite well if they operate under a system of equally applied laws to protect people from theft and fraud, a rule of law protecting property rights. Smiley

Free markets don't work best for everything though, which is not a reason to condemn either free markets or legitimate functions which work better with some government involvement.

In my youth, I lived for a time in an old farmhouse on a fair sized family farm. Someone set the barn across the road from me on fire, and four volunteer fire departments showed up to watch it burn... My point being that a system of local volunteer fire departs doesn't work perfectly either, but if my landlord, who owned the barn, was a subscriber to one private business fire department, they might have been busy with other fires at the time, and no one might have shown up at all.

Edit: There will be a clause in your contract with the private fire department saying that if all their resources are tied up elsewhere when you call them, too bad for you. That of course is not different than having the local volunteer fire department too busy to show up when you need them, but those types of fire departments do operate under the assumption that they will go to fight fires, even if those fires are out of their normal area, and they do. Private fire departments probably would not do that.
  

"Free hate speech"
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Little Biq Man
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Online

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 995
Joined: Mar 17th, 2019
Re: The 4 Tiers Of Justice
Reply #44 - Aug 31st, 2019 at 4:24pm
Print Post  
Jeff wrote on Aug 31st, 2019 at 2:39pm:
No, I wasn't. Our volunteer fire department is not a business. Neither is it an arm of government.


Tell me the name of this magical town where the government gives fire departments tax money but doesn't run them.

If not, I'll know you're lying.

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
The Opposition
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Online

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 11793
Joined: Apr 30th, 2014
Re: The 4 Tiers Of Justice
Reply #45 - Aug 31st, 2019 at 4:38pm
Print Post  
Jeff wrote on Aug 31st, 2019 at 3:20pm:
Free markets actually work quite well if they operate under a system of equally applied laws to protect people from theft and fraud, a rule of law protecting property rights. Smiley


No, they don't. Not in the case of major delay of scammery.

If people don't know whether a promise will be fulfilled for a long time, the promise simply will not be fulfilled and government can't do anything about it.

My family - among many - lost a home to Hurricane Andrew and the insurance companies all just cut and ran.

The free market does not work well (or at all) for instances of money now buying a promise for later. This is one minor flaw and you should be happy that the free market works well for everything else.

Those same people who ran the insurance companies went out of business, relieved themselves of their losses, then just reincorporated as new insurance companies. Government can't stop this because government does not have a crystal ball to see who will keep a promise and who will break it. They now force insurance companies to have bigger coffers, but in the case of another huge disaster, they will just empty the coffers into their own pockets and go out of business, then reincorporate again. Nothing stops them or could stop them.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Little Biq Man
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Online

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 995
Joined: Mar 17th, 2019
Re: The 4 Tiers Of Justice
Reply #46 - Aug 31st, 2019 at 5:02pm
Print Post  
The Opposition wrote on Aug 31st, 2019 at 3:07pm:
All fire departments will be scams for the same reason HMOs are scams. It's much more profitable to take money now and simply break promises later than to invest in keeping that promise. It's so much more profitable that scammers can push legitimate fire departments out of business.

The free market only works against this when customers can tell with immediacy whether they are being scammed or not. The further off the realisation of the scam is, the more certain it is to be a scam. When at last it's revealed, the fire department will go out of business, relieve itself of its losses, and reincorporate as a new business, ready to scam again. (Imagine if you could just change my name and do that!)

This is not to say that all houses will burn down in pure capitalism or everyone will die of stomach cancer.

In pure capitalism, the thing to do will be to invest in making sure these things don't happen, not buying worthless promises in case they do. And I also imagine that suing people because their shoddy wiring cost you your house too, will be a thing.

The only factor that would stop this from working well would be a populace that continues to get scammed and never learns from it, always happily shelling out money now for the next promise which is guaranteed to be empty.


Jeff has a point in that organizations such as Fire Departments work best as community-based volunteer organizations.  Where he goes off the rails is alternating between insisting that these community fire departments must be paid for through the "morally justified theft" of taxation and insisting that the government has nothing to do with them.

All part of the "right not be freeloaded on" he keeps alternately invoking and renouncing.

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 50032
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: The 4 Tiers Of Justice
Reply #47 - Aug 31st, 2019 at 5:36pm
Print Post  
The Opposition wrote on Aug 31st, 2019 at 4:38pm:
No, they don't. Not in the case of major delay of scammery.

You equate a rationally structured rule of impartially applied law as "major delay of scammery"?

You can't see by now that when you have "major delays of scammery", you don't have a free economy?
  

"Free hate speech"
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 50032
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: The 4 Tiers Of Justice
Reply #48 - Aug 31st, 2019 at 5:44pm
Print Post  
Little Biq Man wrote on Aug 31st, 2019 at 5:02pm:
Jeff has a point in that organizations such as Fire Departments work best as community-based volunteer organizations.  Where he goes off the rails is alternating between insisting that these community fire departments must be paid for through the "morally justified theft" of taxation and insisting that the government has nothing to do with them.

All part of the "right not be freeloaded on" he keeps alternately invoking and renouncing.

When the first VFD vehicle reached the scene, the barn was engulfed in flames, an inferno; It was the most local Chief, and he ran off and got stuck in the ditch. By the time a few other vehicles arrived, there weer four VFD vehicles stuck in the ditch. It was a clustercrappity smack.

My landlord was very rude to them at one point...

After they watched the barn collapse down upon itself in a crescendo of flame and spark and super heated burning gasses... Wow!, then they started hosing it down... Which is when my landlord called them stupid crappity smacks and told them to stop spraying water on the burning remnants of his barn and hay wagons.

It took them a long time to get their vehicles out of the ditch. They had to call a big tow truck!

The taxpayers were not well served that evening.

It was years later that they caught a fireman setting fires.
  

"Free hate speech"
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Little Biq Man
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Online

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 995
Joined: Mar 17th, 2019
Re: The 4 Tiers Of Justice
Reply #49 - Aug 31st, 2019 at 5:55pm
Print Post  
Jeff wrote on Aug 31st, 2019 at 5:44pm:
When the first VFD vehicle reached the scene, the barn was engulfed in flames, an inferno; It was the most local Chief, and he ran off and got stuck in the ditch. By the time a few other vehicles arrived, there weer four VFD vehicles stuck in the ditch. It was a clustercrappity smack.

My landlord was very rude to them at one point...

After they watched the barn collapse down upon itself in a crescendo of flame and spark and super heated burning gasses... Wow!, then they started hosing it down... Which is when my landlord called them stupid crappity smacks and told them to stop spraying water on the burning remnants of his barn and hay wagons.

It took them a long time to get their vehicles out of the ditch. They had to call a big tow truck!

The taxpayers were not well served that evening.

It was years later that they caught a fireman setting fires.


Ain't government grand!

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 ... 3 4 [5] 6 7 
Send TopicPrint
 
Libertarian's ForumLibertarian's ForumFreedom Forum › The 4 Tiers Of Justice
Libertarian's Forum

Libertarian's Forum Information Rules, Agreement and Privacy Policy