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The Opposition
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The Maslow Pyramid and Libertarianism - Freedom as a Resource
Aug 31st, 2019 at 4:16pm
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Maslow's pyramid pretty much flies in the face of libertarian thought.

He who chooses safety over freedom loses both and deserves neither.

That always struck me as something someone would never say unless they already had safety - and took it entirely for granted. At very least, isn't the reverse also true? Isn't it also true that if you discard all of your safety for freedom (and die as a result), that you lost both and deserved neither?

It's been hard for me to live at the top of the pyramid and accept that I should care more about whether libertarians get to use all the drugs they want than whether or not I'll be shot in the middle of the night by someone breaking into my house.

...But I have.

Screw safety. I'll just die. I vote for freedom.

...You can't expect this of the general populace, though. When they don't have safety, they will vote for more safety, and they'll say screw your freedom.

They'll say their lives are worth more than your right to own a gun.

Even libertarians will say their life is worth more than my right to own a tiger, because they know they have the numbers to outvoice the few who want that, and more importantly they know that every time safety is eroded, their more precious rights are threatened.

If people don't feel safe, they will vote for safety over actualisation. Every risk - every time someone gets hurt or dies - people feel less safe.

This is why it's always a fight: It's a fight over a resource. There is a limited amount of risk you can impose on the populace before it will collectively agree, alright, no more, I don't feel safe. Freedom really isn't free - it is a resource and it can definitely be expended.

Libertarians entirely understand that only they should be able to impose risks on others. If everyone is allowed to risk everyone, everyone gets fed up and they all stop allowing any risks.

Libertarians can be free... but only if no one else is.

I was going to suggest that libertarians be mindful of risks and stop brushing off mass shootings as simply something we must deal with as a price for freedom. I was going to suggest that unless serious attention is paid to reducing risk, that resource will simply be expended and you will lose your freedom.

I've changed my mind. Freedom is not property. It is a resource, but it can't be claimed. It simply belongs to whoever eats it fastest.

It's your resource to expend. Do as you will with it.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: The Maslow Pyramid and Libertarianism - Freedom as a Resource
Reply #1 - Aug 31st, 2019 at 5:10pm
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The Opposition wrote on Aug 31st, 2019 at 4:16pm:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/33/MaslowsHierarchyOfNeeds...

Maslow's pyramid pretty much flies in the face of libertarian thought.

That's not what I get from looking at the pyramid...

How do I know that isn't a fake Maslow's pyramid?
  

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Jeff
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Re: The Maslow Pyramid and Libertarianism - Freedom as a Resource
Reply #2 - Aug 31st, 2019 at 5:12pm
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The Opposition wrote on Aug 31st, 2019 at 4:16pm:
I've changed my mind. Freedom is not property. It is a resource, but it can't be claimed. It simply belongs to whoever eats it fastest.

That's no change, that's what you've been saying all along...

Are you taking some strange new drugs?
  

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Little Biq Man
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Re: The Maslow Pyramid and Libertarianism - Freedom as a Resource
Reply #3 - Aug 31st, 2019 at 5:24pm
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The Opposition wrote on Aug 31st, 2019 at 4:16pm:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/33/MaslowsHierarchyOfNeeds...

Maslow's pyramid pretty much flies in the face of libertarian thought.

He who chooses safety over freedom loses both and deserves neither.

That always struck me as something someone would never say unless they already had safety - and took it entirely for granted. At very least, isn't the reverse also true? Isn't it also true that if you discard all of your safety for freedom (and die as a result), that you lost both and deserved neither?

It's been hard for me to live at the top of the pyramid and accept that I should care more about whether libertarians get to use all the drugs they want than whether or not I'll be shot in the middle of the night by someone breaking into my house.

...But I have.

Screw safety. I'll just die. I vote for freedom.

...You can't expect this of the general populace, though. When they don't have safety, they will vote for more safety, and they'll say screw your freedom.

They'll say their lives are worth more than your right to own a gun.

Even libertarians will say their life is worth more than my right to own a tiger, because they know they have the numbers to outvoice the few who want that, and more importantly they know that every time safety is eroded, their more precious rights are threatened.

If people don't feel safe, they will vote for safety over actualisation. Every risk - every time someone gets hurt or dies - people feel less safe.

This is why it's always a fight: It's a fight over a resource. There is a limited amount of risk you can impose on the populace before it will collectively agree, alright, no more, I don't feel safe. Freedom really isn't free - it is a resource and it can definitely be expended.

Libertarians entirely understand that only they should be able to impose risks on others. If everyone is allowed to risk everyone, everyone gets fed up and they all stop allowing any risks.

Libertarians can be free... but only if no one else is.

I was going to suggest that libertarians be mindful of risks and stop brushing off mass shootings as simply something we must deal with as a price for freedom. I was going to suggest that unless serious attention is paid to reducing risk, that resource will simply be expended and you will lose your freedom.

I've changed my mind. Freedom is not property. It is a resource, but it can't be claimed. It simply belongs to whoever eats it fastest.

It's your resource to expend. Do as you will with it.


Maslow's Pyramid is cited extensively in educational psychology.  Teachers tell students they need an education so they can be the best them that they can be which is the self-actualization at the top of the pyramid.  Unfortunately, teacher are told, if their students are hungry (physiological), scared (safety), feeling unloved (love/belonging), and therefore not loving themselves (self-esteem), then the first four levels of the pyramid are not being satisfied.  Therefore, the last thing they will be thinking about is learning their times tables to achieve self-actualization.

On the other hand, human nature is to mix up the priorities of the pyramid.  Those men who stormed the beaches at Normandy literally sacrificed any safety to avoid being stigmatized as cowards.   
  
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Jeff
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Re: The Maslow Pyramid and Libertarianism - Freedom as a Resource
Reply #4 - Aug 31st, 2019 at 5:48pm
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Little Biq Man wrote on Aug 31st, 2019 at 5:24pm:
On the other hand, human nature is to mix up the priorities of the pyramid.
Which tells you right off the pyramid means little or nothing?

Maybe he hasn't even picked the right priorities, for me anyway.

Edit: I think he just named them poorly.

Anyway, freedom is a right. People who think other people's freedom is a "resource" are called slavers.

Being individually free is tremendously helpful, but I can't think why you might call it a "resource"? Will you please explain according to accepted rules  of debate? Thank you.
  

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Jeff
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Re: The Maslow Pyramid and Libertarianism - Freedom as a Resource
Reply #5 - Aug 31st, 2019 at 5:56pm
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Little Biq Man wrote on Aug 31st, 2019 at 5:24pm:
Maslow's Pyramid is cited extensively in educational psychology.
So is a whole lot of other nonsensical crap...

Reminds me of an acquaintance from the past, at work, a man who was convinced that if his pile of shit was high enough, he won!  The name most people at work knew him by was "Collard Green".

His Dad was the same way, only nicer.
  

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The Opposition
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Re: The Maslow Pyramid and Libertarianism - Freedom as a Resource
Reply #6 - Aug 31st, 2019 at 6:43pm
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Jeff wrote on Aug 31st, 2019 at 5:48pm:
Anyway, freedom is a right. People who think other people's freedom is a "resource" are called slavers.


Your freedom is a resource, and risking others is the straw through which it is drunk.

If the populace is risked too much, they will stop feeling safe and stop allowing you to risk them. They will demand tougher laws.

Libertarians have figured out that as long as the straws are restricted to just a few people, they can drink as much as they want and it will still add up to very little risk, which won't scare the populace.

Have you noticed that every argument on this forum is fundamentally about who should be allowed to expend this precious resource... and who should not?
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: The Maslow Pyramid and Libertarianism - Freedom as a Resource
Reply #7 - Aug 31st, 2019 at 7:03pm
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The Opposition wrote on Aug 31st, 2019 at 6:43pm:
Your freedom is a resource, and risking others is the straw through which it is drunk.

That sounds ominous Shocked Shocked Shocked. But crazy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy.
  

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Jeff
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Re: The Maslow Pyramid and Libertarianism - Freedom as a Resource
Reply #8 - Aug 31st, 2019 at 7:06pm
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The Opposition wrote on Aug 31st, 2019 at 6:43pm:
Have you noticed that every argument on this forum is fundamentally about who should be allowed to expend this precious resource... and who should not?
Ho hum.. 'Yawn'.

I'm mostly free, but if you manage to seize enough power, you can make me a slave.

What's to argue about? Whether or not you should be allowed to make me a slave? Or maybe whether or not its moral to make me a slave?
  

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yamcha
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Re: The Maslow Pyramid and Libertarianism - Freedom as a Resource
Reply #9 - Aug 31st, 2019 at 9:21pm
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The Opposition wrote on Aug 31st, 2019 at 4:16pm:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/33/MaslowsHierarchyOfNeeds...

Maslow's pyramid pretty much flies in the face of libertarian thought.

He who chooses safety over freedom loses both and deserves neither.

That always struck me as something someone would never say unless they already had safety - and took it entirely for granted. At very least, isn't the reverse also true? Isn't it also true that if you discard all of your safety for freedom (and die as a result), that you lost both and deserved neither?

It's been hard for me to live at the top of the pyramid and accept that I should care more about whether libertarians get to use all the drugs they want than whether or not I'll be shot in the middle of the night by someone breaking into my house.

...But I have.

Screw safety. I'll just die. I vote for freedom.

...You can't expect this of the general populace, though. When they don't have safety, they will vote for more safety, and they'll say screw your freedom.

They'll say their lives are worth more than your right to own a gun.

Even libertarians will say their life is worth more than my right to own a tiger, because they know they have the numbers to outvoice the few who want that, and more importantly they know that every time safety is eroded, their more precious rights are threatened.

If people don't feel safe, they will vote for safety over actualisation. Every risk - every time someone gets hurt or dies - people feel less safe.

This is why it's always a fight: It's a fight over a resource. There is a limited amount of risk you can impose on the populace before it will collectively agree, alright, no more, I don't feel safe. Freedom really isn't free - it is a resource and it can definitely be expended.

Libertarians entirely understand that only they should be able to impose risks on others. If everyone is allowed to risk everyone, everyone gets fed up and they all stop allowing any risks.

Libertarians can be free... but only if no one else is.

I was going to suggest that libertarians be mindful of risks and stop brushing off mass shootings as simply something we must deal with as a price for freedom. I was going to suggest that unless serious attention is paid to reducing risk, that resource will simply be expended and you will lose your freedom.

I've changed my mind. Freedom is not property. It is a resource, but it can't be claimed. It simply belongs to whoever eats it fastest.

It's your resource to expend. Do as you will with it.


https://www.safetynewsalert.com/mike-rowe-safety-first-is-a-load-of-unmitigated-...

You know Mike Rowe, the guy on the Discovery Channel who hosts Dirty Jobs? A viewer recently called him out on not wearing the proper safety gear on his show. His response? “Of all the platitudes embraced in the workplace there is none more pervasive, erroneous, overused and dangerous than ‘Safety First!'”

Rowe responded, “It is not the objective of Dirty Jobs to conform to any particular set of safety standards, other than those dictated by the people for who I happen to be working at the time. I take my cues from them.”

That was followed by the quote in the first graph of this story. Rowe called the “Safety First” slogan “a load of unmitigated nonsense.”

“In the jobs I have seen thus far, I can tell you with certainty, that safety, while always a major consideration, is never the priority,” Rowe wrote. “Never. Never, ever. Not even once.”

He goes on to say that safety is important, but not more important than getting the job done. “Making money is more important than safety — always,” he writes.

Rowe’s point: If an employer tells you safety is the most important thing, don’t believe it. He says that causes workers to become complacent and careless.

“When a business tells you that they are more concerned with your safety than anything else, beware,” Rowe says. “They are not being honest. They are hedging their own bets, and following the advice of lawyers hired to protect them from lawsuits arising from accidents.”

Rowe says he wears safety belts and motorcycle helmets not because it’s the law, but because it seems like a reasonable precaution to him and “the only one responsible for my own safety is me.”

He concludes that he probably should have been wearing safety glasses, but not because “safety is first,” but because he likes to hedge his bets.
  
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