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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Executive Branch Departments (Read 915 times)
Jeff
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Executive Branch Departments
Sep 1st, 2019 at 7:31pm
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Here's a current list:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_executive_departments

Here's what the Constitution authorizes:

State Department

Department of the Treasury

Department of War

Department of the Navy.



  

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Little Biq Man
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Re: Executive Branch Departments
Reply #1 - Sep 2nd, 2019 at 1:10pm
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Jeff wrote on Sep 1st, 2019 at 7:31pm:
Here's a current list:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_executive_departments

Here's what the Constitution authorizes:

State Department

Department of the Treasury

Department of War

Department of the Navy.





The constitution is vague about how departments are created.  Fairest reading of the language is that the president can propose a new department by nominating a head of the proposed new department and getting advice and consent of the Senate.

Article II requires advice and consent for appointment of all officers, but with the proviso that congress can authorize either the president or department heads to make certain appointments. 

Clearly the constitution envisioned a far smaller government than exists now, to even consider the possibility that the Senate could approve officers one by one.  But, of course, this clause:

Section 8

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

Guaranteed that the government would grow into a behemoth.


  
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Jeff
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Re: Executive Branch Departments
Reply #2 - Sep 2nd, 2019 at 2:31pm
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Little Biq Man wrote on Sep 2nd, 2019 at 1:10pm:
The constitution is vague about how departments are created.  Fairest reading of the language is that the president can propose a new department by nominating a head of the proposed new department and getting advice and consent of the Senate.

Article II requires advice and consent for appointment of all officers, but with the proviso that congress can authorize either the president or department heads to make certain appointments. 
What language in the Constitution leads you to believe that a "fair reading" of that document allows the President, with consent of the Senate, to create a Department of Energy? How about HUD?
  

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Jeff
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Re: Executive Branch Departments
Reply #3 - Sep 2nd, 2019 at 2:38pm
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Little Biq Man wrote on Sep 2nd, 2019 at 1:10pm:
But, of course, this clause:

Section 8

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

Guaranteed that the government would grow into a behemoth.


Not true, not if the Constitutional limitations requiring all Direct taxes to be apportioned, and all Indirect taxes to be uniform, are followed.

And BTW, it's incongruous for you to be arguing that the Constitution allows the government to create departments not mentioned in the Constitution, or departments not created to carry our some specific duty given to the government.

Unless of course you are arguing for throwing away the Constitution, which I believe you are doing. That's a bad idea. The Constitution is basically a good framework for government, one that was better before the "progressive interpreters" got hold of it. Cry

Rather than toss it out, let's fix it... And yes, I know that Congress and the President and lots of cronies like it just the way it is interpreted, giving them unlimited power and unlimited taxing power.
  

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Little Biq Man
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Re: Executive Branch Departments
Reply #4 - Sep 2nd, 2019 at 2:46pm
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Jeff wrote on Sep 2nd, 2019 at 2:31pm:
What language in the Constitution leads you to believe that a "fair reading" of that document allows the President, with consent of the Senate, to create a Department of Energy? How about HUD?


Section 8

1: The Congress shall have Power To

. . .

18: To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

1: The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States; he may require the Opinion, in writing, of the principal Officer in each of the executive Departments, upon any Subject relating to the Duties of their respective Offices, and he shall have Power to grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offences against the United States, except in Cases of Impeachment.

2: He shall have Power, by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, to make Treaties, provided two thirds of the Senators present concur; and he shall nominate, and by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, shall appoint Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls, Judges of the supreme Court, and all other Officers of the United States, whose Appointments are not herein otherwise provided for, and which shall be established by Law: but the Congress may by Law vest the Appointment of such inferior Officers, as they think proper, in the President alone, in the Courts of Law, or in the Heads of Departments.

  
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Jeff
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Re: Executive Branch Departments
Reply #5 - Sep 2nd, 2019 at 2:59pm
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Little Biq Man wrote on Sep 2nd, 2019 at 2:46pm:
Section 8

1: The Congress shall have Power To

. . .

18: To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

1: The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States; he may require the Opinion, in writing, of the principal Officer in each of the executive Departments, upon any Subject relating to the Duties of their respective Offices, and he shall have Power to grant Reprieves and Pardons for Offences against the United States, except in Cases of Impeachment.

2: He shall have Power, by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, to make Treaties, provided two thirds of the Senators present concur; and he shall nominate, and by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, shall appoint Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls, Judges of the supreme Court, and all other Officers of the United States, whose Appointments are not herein otherwise provided for, and which shall be established by Law: but the Congress may by Law vest the Appointment of such inferior Officers, as they think proper, in the President alone, in the Courts of Law, or in the Heads of Departments.

The "necessary and proper clause"? That refers specifically to things like creating a Department of War as something necessary to carry on a war, which makes it proper to create a War Department.

There must be a granted power before it becomes necessary and proper to create a department to realize that power...

What granted power do you think makes a Department of Agriculture "necessary and proper"?
  

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Little Biq Man
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Re: Executive Branch Departments
Reply #6 - Sep 2nd, 2019 at 3:11pm
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Jeff wrote on Sep 2nd, 2019 at 2:59pm:
The "necessary and proper clause"? That refers specifically to things like creating a Department of War as something necessary to carry on a war, which makes it proper to create a War Department.

There must be a granted power before it becomes necessary and proper to create a department to realize that power...

What granted power do you think makes a Department of Agriculture "necessary and proper"?


Are you seriously claiming that they army congress is allowed to raise and the navy they are authorized to create will not have to consume any agricultural products?


  
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Jeff
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Re: Executive Branch Departments
Reply #7 - Sep 2nd, 2019 at 4:08pm
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Little Biq Man wrote on Sep 2nd, 2019 at 3:11pm:
Are you seriously claiming that they army congress is allowed to raise and the navy they are authorized to create will not have to consume any agricultural products?


No, armies have to eat. That's why the government is empowered to raise revenue through taxation, and expend revenue for legitimate purposes, like buying food for the army. Smiley

If we were to be foolish enough to put food production in the hands of Department of Agriculture bureaucrats, there would probably be a famine. Cry

But you're avoiding the question... What Constitutional grant of power makes it necessary to have a Department of Agriculture?

You can't be serious in suggesting that the power to declare war requires that a Dept. of Agriculture be created so that food for the military can be produced...

That is probably similar to what they do in North Korea, which is why they have famines...
  

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The Opposition
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Re: Executive Branch Departments
Reply #8 - Sep 2nd, 2019 at 4:08pm
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Little Biq Man wrote on Sep 2nd, 2019 at 3:11pm:
Are you seriously claiming that they army congress is allowed to raise and the navy they are authorized to create will not have to consume any agricultural products?


Nope. And wartime rationing was never needed either. The free market would have just solved the problem if the government had let it.

...And... and not by reducing the population or anything.

Grin
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
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Jeff
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Re: Executive Branch Departments
Reply #9 - Sep 2nd, 2019 at 4:13pm
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The Opposition wrote on Sep 2nd, 2019 at 4:08pm:
Nope. And wartime rationing was never needed either.
Wartime rationing was "needed" because FDR took over the economy for the duration of the war.

Centrally planned economies always need rationing.

Edit: You've still avoided the question.

What granted power in the Constitution makes a Dept. of Housing and Urban Development necessary?
  

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