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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Executive Branch Departments (Read 1371 times)
Little Biq Man
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Re: Executive Branch Departments
Reply #10 - Sep 2nd, 2019 at 4:17pm
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Jeff wrote on Sep 2nd, 2019 at 4:08pm:
No, armies have to eat. That's why the government is empowered to raise revenue through taxation, and expend revenue for legitimate purposes, like buying food for the army. Smiley

If we were to be foolish enough to put food production in the hands of Department of Agriculture bureaucrats, there would probably be a famine. Cry

But you're avoiding the question... What Constitutional grant of power makes it necessary to have a Department of Agriculture?


I just told you.  You disagree and that is fine.

The constitution is vague about how departments are authorized, so congress and the president figure it out.

I know you don't like that, but it's the Constitution, not the Jeffstitution.

  
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Jeff
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Re: Executive Branch Departments
Reply #11 - Sep 2nd, 2019 at 4:41pm
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Little Biq Man wrote on Sep 2nd, 2019 at 4:17pm:
The constitution is vague about how departments are authorized, so congress and the president figure it out.
It is not vague, it requires that laws enacted (and it takes a law to create a department) must be necessary to the accomplishment of some duty mentioned by the Constitution, or necessary to the exercise of some granted power.

Necessary is probably a word you think is slippery and vague...

In any case, I'm not smart enough to think this stuff up, I learned it by reading Constitutional case law, mostly from the Supreme Court. There are also good commentaries available by respected libertarian Constitutional scholars where you could learn about it. They cite appropriate cases from the S.Ct.

Edit: Now, about the "necessity" of HUD to fulfilling some Constitutionally assigned duty, or exercising some granted power...

Where do you see it? The armies raised by Congress need to be housed in well developed urban areas?  (In federal government terms, that means "ghetto".)
  

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Little Biq Man
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Re: Executive Branch Departments
Reply #12 - Sep 2nd, 2019 at 4:57pm
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Jeff wrote on Sep 2nd, 2019 at 4:41pm:
It is not vague, it requires that laws enacted (and it takes a law to create a department) must be necessary to the accomplishment of some duty mentioned by the Constitution, or necessary to the exercise of some granted power.




Is that a quote?  Where from?  It's not from the constitution, that's for sure.

Look, Jeff.  I know you think the framers were these really smart guys who designed a constitution that would limit government, but that  dumb or evil people came along and stopped following it so government could grow.

Truth is, they were these really smart guys who were smart enough to know that strengthening the central government by giving it the power to tax would lead to unlimited growth as the power to tax always had. 

They knew that to sell it to the states, they had to give lip service to limitations, but they also knew that the letter of any document can be followed while ignoring the spirit.



  
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The Opposition
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Re: Executive Branch Departments
Reply #13 - Sep 2nd, 2019 at 5:16pm
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Jeff wrote on Sep 2nd, 2019 at 4:13pm:
Wartime rationing was "needed" because FDR took over the economy for the duration of the war.


Yes, but... remember how it doesn't matter what kind of interference is already in play because the free market just fixes everything?

That's why we should all ignore cronyism and still insist that all the precious private property cronies earned 100% legitimately by altering government policy through bribes is still their private property.

Two wrongs don't make a right, you see.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: Executive Branch Departments
Reply #14 - Sep 2nd, 2019 at 6:23pm
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Little Biq Man wrote on Sep 2nd, 2019 at 4:57pm:
Is that a quote?  Where from?  It's not from the constitution, that's for sure.
Thing that are necessary to accomplish tasks assigned by the Constitution to government are "necessary", and permissible, as long as they are "proper" to the intended purpose.

No, the Constitution does not say "Congress shall have the power to create a Department of Housing and Urban Development so that soldiers can live in "planned" urban ghettos.

It is however, necessary and proper to house soldiers if you raise an army, which makes it OK to build military housing on military bases, which, if necessary, can be built on land taken by eminent domain.
  

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Jeff
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Re: Executive Branch Departments
Reply #15 - Sep 2nd, 2019 at 6:24pm
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The Opposition wrote on Sep 2nd, 2019 at 5:16pm:
Yes, but... remember how it doesn't matter what kind of interference is already in play because the free market just fixes everything?

Free markets don't exist when there is government interference in an economy, and free market forces can't alter the government.
  

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Jeff
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Re: Executive Branch Departments
Reply #16 - Sep 2nd, 2019 at 6:27pm
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Little Biq Man wrote on Sep 2nd, 2019 at 4:57pm:
Look, Jeff.  I know you think the framers were these really smart guys who designed a constitution that would limit government, but that  dumb or evil people came along and stopped following it so government could grow.
I believe that because it's true, except that the people who ruined it weren't/aren't  dumb or evil. They were misguided and ill-informed, but most of them (even Woodrow Wilson) thought they were going to make things better.
  

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Little Biq Man
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Re: Executive Branch Departments
Reply #17 - Sep 2nd, 2019 at 6:28pm
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Jeff wrote on Sep 2nd, 2019 at 6:23pm:
Thing that are necessary to accomplish tasks assigned by the Constitution to government are "necessary", and permissible, as long as they are "proper" to the intended purpose.

No, the Constitution does not say "Congress shall have the power to create a Department of Housing and Urban Development so that soldiers can live in "planned" urban ghettos.

It is however, necessary and proper to house soldiers if you raise an army, which makes it OK to build military housing on military bases, which, if necessary, can be built on land taken by eminent domain.


That's what Jeff gets from reading the constitution.  But not what anyone else gets.  Unless there's an "ask Jeff" clause, your interpretation is no more right than anyone else's.

  
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Jeff
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Re: Executive Branch Departments
Reply #18 - Sep 2nd, 2019 at 6:29pm
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Little Biq Man wrote on Sep 2nd, 2019 at 4:57pm:
Truth is, they were these really smart guys who were smart enough to know that strengthening the central government by giving it the power to tax would lead to unlimited growth as the power to tax always had. 

They knew that to sell it to the states, they had to give lip service to limitations, but they also knew that the letter of any document can be followed while ignoring the spirit.
It's the unlimited power to tax that's the problem, and the unlimited power to legislate along with it.

At least we agree, "progressive" usurped powers not granted.
  

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The Opposition
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Re: Executive Branch Departments
Reply #19 - Sep 2nd, 2019 at 8:05pm
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Jeff wrote on Sep 2nd, 2019 at 6:24pm:
Free markets don't exist when there is government interference in an economy, and free market forces can't alter the government.


Whenever something goes wrong, the government is the problem.

Whenever something goes right, the bits of the free market we have is the cause.

You will press for freedom after freedom, and if things worsen, you still have the government to blame. If there's no government at all, you'll blame anarchy. You can't lose.

The homeowners insurance industry was virtually unregulated before Hurricane Andrew and your response to people who lost their homes because their insurance cut and ran was, tough luck, should have bought better insurance. (Even though 16 of the I believe 18 companies went out of business.)

Please provide a guideline for gauging when insurance is too cheap, too good to be true. Should I just select the most expensive one? You know, just in case?
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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