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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Executive Branch Departments (Read 1517 times)
Little Biq Man
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Re: Executive Branch Departments
Reply #20 - Sep 2nd, 2019 at 8:38pm
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Jeff wrote on Sep 2nd, 2019 at 6:29pm:
It's the unlimited power to tax that's the problem, and the unlimited power to legislate along with it.



Right.

Anytime there has been a limited power to tax that stayed limited, freedom has been protected.

What were some of the example of when that happened, again?  I missed where you answered that the last fifteen crappity smacking times I asked you.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Executive Branch Departments
Reply #21 - Sep 2nd, 2019 at 8:44pm
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Milk doesn't go rotten if you remain vigilant and keep those gosh darn bacteria from breeding in it.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: Executive Branch Departments
Reply #22 - Sep 3rd, 2019 at 9:47am
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Little Biq Man wrote on Sep 2nd, 2019 at 8:38pm:
Right.

Anytime there has been a limited power to tax that stayed limited, freedom has been protected.
We agree then, the Constitutional limits on the taxing power must be followed if we are to be free.
  

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Jeff
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Re: Executive Branch Departments
Reply #23 - Sep 3rd, 2019 at 9:48am
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The Opposition wrote on Sep 2nd, 2019 at 8:44pm:
Milk doesn't go rotten if you remain vigilant and keep those gosh darn bacteria from breeding in it.
Good analogy, good point. Smiley
  

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ahhell
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Re: Executive Branch Departments
Reply #24 - Sep 3rd, 2019 at 12:33pm
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Jeff wrote on Sep 2nd, 2019 at 2:59pm:
The "necessary and proper clause"? That refers specifically to things like creating a Department of War as something necessary to carry on a war, which makes it proper to create a War Department.

There must be a granted power before it becomes necessary and proper to create a department to realize that power...

What granted power do you think makes a Department of Agriculture "necessary and proper"?

This is fairly silly, you can of course question where the authorization comes from to create a particular department.  Clearly there is not an authorization for the feds to medal in education, except perhaps the GI Bill.  That is a very different question to whether the feds can create executive branch bureaucracies for things other than war, the navy, state. 

The feds have a role in interstate commerce, a department of commerce is therefore reasonable under the constitution.  Along with a number of other such offices.  There is nothing in the constitution that can be construed as the feds may only create departments as expressly authorized in the constitution.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Executive Branch Departments
Reply #25 - Sep 3rd, 2019 at 2:30pm
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ahhell wrote on Sep 3rd, 2019 at 12:33pm:
The feds have a role in interstate commerce...
yes, to prevent it from becoming irregular, meaning to prevent trade wars and tariffs between the states, to make sure that free trade exists within the U.S.
  

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Jeff
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Re: Executive Branch Departments
Reply #26 - Sep 3rd, 2019 at 2:32pm
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ahhell wrote on Sep 3rd, 2019 at 12:33pm:
There is nothing in the constitution that can be construed as the feds may only create departments as expressly authorized in the constitution. 
The Constitution is a grant of limited, enumerated powers. If it doesn't explicitly say they can do something, they can't.

This was an essential element in making sure we had a limited federal government.

Since no power is granted that would necessitate the creation of a Department of Education, they can't create one. Since no power is granted that would necessitate creating a Department of Health and Human Services, they can't create one.

It's not a silly question, it's a fundamental question relating to the limiting of government.
  

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ahhell
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Re: Executive Branch Departments
Reply #27 - Sep 3rd, 2019 at 3:30pm
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Well, it doesn't specifically say their shall be departments of state, war, nor the navy, I guess they must all be unconstitutional then?
  
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Jeff
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Re: Executive Branch Departments
Reply #28 - Sep 3rd, 2019 at 5:15pm
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ahhell wrote on Sep 3rd, 2019 at 3:30pm:
Well, it doesn't specifically say their shall be departments of state, war, nor the navy...
That's what the "necessary and proper" clause is for.

You think the President alone can handle foreign relations? Without a DoS, who would keep track of ambassadors? You want the President to negotiate all treaties by himself? Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

Edit: It's both necessary and proper to have a State Department.


  

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Little Big Man
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Re: Executive Branch Departments
Reply #29 - Sep 3rd, 2019 at 5:21pm
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Jeff wrote on Sep 3rd, 2019 at 5:15pm:
That's what the "necessary and proper" clause is for.

You think the President alone can handle foreign relations? Without a DoS, who would keep track of ambassadors? You want the President to negotiate all treaties by himself? Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

Edit: It's both necessary and proper to have a State Department.




LqM and Ahhell, this is the little known “ask Jeff” principal of constitutional law. 

I used to beat my head against the concrete block that is Jeff’s logical reasoning function, but it is to no avail.
  

Snarky no more!
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