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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Executive Branch Departments (Read 1425 times)
Jeff
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Re: Executive Branch Departments
Reply #40 - Sep 5th, 2019 at 12:54pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Sep 5th, 2019 at 10:30am:
Well, there you go, q.

Jeff asks what he thinks is a slam-dunk question.  You treat it like the softball it is, give him a perfectly valid answer and he cries about it.


That a Dept. of Agriculture is necessary and proper under the commerce clause is nonsense, not a valid answer.
  

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Re: Executive Branch Departments
Reply #41 - Sep 5th, 2019 at 4:55pm
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Essentially, you are saying that the commerce clause authorized all of the added Executive Branch Departments, under it's grant of power.

Of course, that's not true.

Departments like HUD are claimed to be authorized under power granted by the mention of the "general Welfare" in the Preamble. Cheesy

"Progressives" are quite transparent if you know what to look for...
  

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Little Biq Man
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Re: Executive Branch Departments
Reply #42 - Sep 5th, 2019 at 8:16pm
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Jeff wrote on Sep 5th, 2019 at 4:55pm:
Essentially, you are saying that the commerce clause authorized all of the added Executive Branch Departments, under it's grant of power.

Of course, that's not true.

Departments like HUD are claimed to be authorized under power granted by the mention of the "general Welfare" in the Preamble. Cheesy

"Progressives" are quite transparent if you know what to look for...


To whom does the constitution grant the power to decide what is necessary and proper?

Answer in your next reply or you lost this one.
  
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Re: Executive Branch Departments
Reply #43 - Sep 6th, 2019 at 7:07am
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Little Biq Man wrote on Sep 5th, 2019 at 8:16pm:
To whom does the constitution grant the power to decide what is necessary and proper?

Answer in your next reply or you lost this one.
Federalist No. 33: Hamilton
           "This simple train of inquiry furnishes us at once with a test of the true nature of the clause complained of. It conducts us to the palpable truth that a power to lay and collect taxes must be a power to pass all laws necessary and proper for the execution of that power; and what does the unfortunate and calumniated provision in question do more than declare the same truth, to wit, that the national legislature to whom the power of laying and collecting taxes had been previously given might, in the execution of that power, pass all laws necessary and proper to carry it into effect? I have applied these observations thus particularly to the power of taxation, because it is the immediate subject under consideration and because it is the most important of the authorities proposed to be conferred upon the Union. But the same process will lead to the same result in relation to all other powers declared in the Constitution. And it is expressly to execute these powers that the sweeping clause, as it has affectedly been called, authorizes the national legislature to pass all necessary and proper laws. If there be anything exceptionable, it must be sought for in the specific powers upon which this general declaration is predicted."

The short version:

"...it is expressly to execute these powers that the sweeping clause, as it has affectedly been called, authorizes the national legislature to pass all necessary and proper laws. If there be anything exceptionable, it must be sought for in the specific powers upon which this general declaration is predicted."

If that's too hard for you to understand, I'l try to explain it to you...


Edit: Since you consistently refuse to explain where in the Constitution you find a grant of power to authorize the creation of a Dept. of Agriculture, other than saying "the commerce clause", you've already "lost this one".

Claiming that the commerce clause and the mention of the "general Welfare" in the Preamble allows unlimited government puts you squarely in the "progressive" camp. Cry
  

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Jeff
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Re: Executive Branch Departments
Reply #44 - Sep 6th, 2019 at 3:59pm
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Jeff wrote on Sep 6th, 2019 at 7:07am:
Federalist No. 33: Hamilton
           "This simple train of inquiry furnishes us at once with a test of the true nature of the clause complained of. It conducts us to the palpable truth that a power to lay and collect taxes must be a power to pass all laws necessary and proper for the execution of that power; and what does the unfortunate and calumniated provision in question do more than declare the same truth, to wit, that the national legislature to whom the power of laying and collecting taxes had been previously given might, in the execution of that power, pass all laws necessary and proper to carry it into effect? I have applied these observations thus particularly to the power of taxation, because it is the immediate subject under consideration and because it is the most important of the authorities proposed to be conferred upon the Union. But the same process will lead to the same result in relation to all other powers declared in the Constitution. And it is expressly to execute these powers that the sweeping clause, as it has affectedly been called, authorizes the national legislature to pass all necessary and proper laws. If there be anything exceptionable, it must be sought for in the specific powers upon which this general declaration is predicted."

The short version:

"...it is expressly to execute these powers that the sweeping clause, as it has affectedly been called, authorizes the national legislature to pass all necessary and proper laws. If there be anything exceptionable, it must be sought for in the specific powers upon which this general declaration is predicted."

If that's too hard for you to understand, I'l try to explain it to you...


Edit: Since you consistently refuse to explain where in the Constitution you find a grant of power to authorize the creation of a Dept. of Agriculture, other than saying "the commerce clause", you've already "lost this one".

Claiming that the commerce clause and the mention of the "general Welfare" in the Preamble allows unlimited government puts you squarely in the "progressive" camp. Cry
No response=capitulation!

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Little Biq Man
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Re: Executive Branch Departments
Reply #45 - Sep 6th, 2019 at 6:49pm
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Jeff wrote on Sep 6th, 2019 at 3:59pm:
No response=capitulation!

I love to win! Kiss Kiss Kiss



Notice that you did not cite one single word of the constitution and then claimed victory in a debate about what the constitution says.  Here's how a person wins a constitutional debate:

1: The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

2: To borrow Money on the credit of the United States;

3: To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

4: To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

5: To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

6: To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

7: To establish Post Offices and post Roads;

8: To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

9: To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;

10: To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offences against the Law of Nations;

11: To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

12: To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

13: To provide and maintain a Navy;

14: To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

15: To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

16: To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

17: To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the Acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings;—And

18: To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.


That's who has the power to make laws it deems necessary and proper.

The beauty part is that if someone thinks the legislative branch has violated the constitution, the constitution itself provides the answer:  See the judicial branch.

The case you want is McCulloch v. Maryland.  Read all about it and get back to me.

Thanks

« Last Edit: Sep 6th, 2019 at 7:54pm by Little Biq Man »  
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Jeff
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Re: Executive Branch Departments
Reply #46 - Sep 7th, 2019 at 7:18am
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Little Biq Man wrote on Sep 6th, 2019 at 6:49pm:
18: To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper
That's who has the power to make laws it deems necessary and proper.
Yes, necessary and proper "...for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof."

If it isn't necessary (or proper) for executing a granted power, it isn't constitutional.

Now, you say the creation of a Department of Agriculture was "necessary" for keeping commerce between the states regular, but you don't want to explain why or how...

Give it a try why don't you.

  

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Little Biq Man
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Re: Executive Branch Departments
Reply #47 - Sep 7th, 2019 at 8:56am
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Jeff wrote on Sep 7th, 2019 at 7:18am:
Yes, necessary and proper "...for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof."

If it isn't necessary (or proper) for executing a granted power, it isn't constitutional.

Now, you say the creation of a Department of Agriculture was "necessary" for keeping commerce between the states regular,



Oh, I see your mistake.  I don't say that.  Congress said that.  The constitution does not give me the power to say that this department or that is necessary and proper.  The constitution vests that power in congress, and gives the power to settle any claim of overstepping by congress to the USSC.

Any luck finding McCulloch V Maryland?


  
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Jeff
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Re: Executive Branch Departments
Reply #48 - Sep 7th, 2019 at 11:54am
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Little Biq Man wrote on Sep 7th, 2019 at 8:56am:
Oh, I see your mistake.  I don't say that.  Congress said that.  The constitution does not give me the power to say that this department or that is necessary and proper.  The constitution vests that power in congress, and gives the power to settle any claim of overstepping by congress to the USSC.
As you probably know, the New Deal Supreme Court decided that the Constitution was an unlimited grant of power to Congress that included an unlimited power to tax. Shocked

In fact, it's not at all difficult from a reading of the necessary and proper clause in context to determine that it's talking about the enactment of laws that are necessary to execute the powers granted to Congress, which, despite the tortured reasoning (or lack of reasoning) that led the New Deal Court to declare the Constitution a grant of unlimited power, are in fact limited enumerated powers.

That "progressives" don't like an actual fair reading of he Constitution is no surprise. That document was intended to reign in the expansive dreams of "progressives" for a powerful government.

Apparently, you weren't able to understand what Madison said about the necessary and proper clause while he ridiculed those who were calling it what you call it, a "sweeping" clause. It's not a broad sweeping general power, it's a limited grant of power to allow the proper execution of the other granted powers.
  

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Little Biq Man
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Re: Executive Branch Departments
Reply #49 - Sep 7th, 2019 at 5:39pm
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Jeff wrote on Sep 7th, 2019 at 11:54am:
As you probably know, the New Deal Supreme Court decided that the Constitution was an unlimited grant of power to Congress that included an unlimited power to tax. Shocked
They never said that unless you can cite me a case.

Quote:
In fact, it's not at all difficult from a reading of the necessary and proper clause in context to determine that it's talking about the enactment of laws that are necessary to execute the powers granted to Congress, which, despite the tortured reasoning (or lack of reasoning) that led the New Deal Court to declare the Constitution a grant of unlimited power, are in fact limited enumerated powers.

That "progressives" don't like an actual fair reading of he Constitution is no surprise. That document was intended to reign in the expansive dreams of "progressives" for a powerful government.

Apparently, you weren't able to understand what Madison said about the necessary and proper clause while he ridiculed those who were calling it what you call it, a "sweeping" clause. It's not a broad sweeping general power, it's a limited grant of power to allow the proper execution of the other granted powers.


You don't think that Slavemaster Madison was smart enough to realize that the constitution was flexible enough to allow almost any conceivable growth in government power?

The stated purpose of the constitution was to increase the power of the federal government, not to limit it.

  
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