Libertarian's Forum
Libertarian Forum to discuss politics and free market economics.
Libertarian's ForumLibertarian's ForumFreedom Forum › Executive Branch Departments
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 ... 6 7 [8] 9 10 ... 14 Send TopicPrint
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Executive Branch Departments (Read 1375 times)
Little Biq Man
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 955
Joined: Mar 17th, 2019
Re: Executive Branch Departments
Reply #70 - Sep 8th, 2019 at 8:24pm
Print Post  
Jeff wrote on Sep 8th, 2019 at 7:18pm:
According to who?

What Congresscritter has ever said that the Agriculture Dept. was necessary for regulating commerce?




The ones who served during the Lincoln administration.

Lincoln agreed:

In 2012, USDA commemorated and celebrated its 150th anniversary. Founded in 1862, President Abraham Lincoln signed into law an act of Congress establishing the United States Department of Agriculture.

Two and one-half years later, in what would be his final annual message to the Congress; Lincoln called USDA "The People's Department." At that time, about half of all Americans lived on farms, compared with about 2 percent today. But through our work on food, agriculture, economic development, science, natural resource conservation and a host of issues, USDA still fulfills Lincoln's vision - touching the lives of every American, every day.

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Little Biq Man
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 955
Joined: Mar 17th, 2019
Re: Executive Branch Departments
Reply #71 - Sep 8th, 2019 at 8:25pm
Print Post  
Drat!

Double post.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 49536
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Executive Branch Departments
Reply #72 - Sep 9th, 2019 at 6:00am
Print Post  
Little Biq Man wrote on Sep 8th, 2019 at 8:24pm:
The ones who served during the Lincoln administration.

Lincoln agreed:

In 2012, USDA commemorated and celebrated its 150th anniversary. Founded in 1862, President Abraham Lincoln signed into law an act of Congress establishing the United States Department of Agriculture.

Two and one-half years later, in what would be his final annual message to the Congress; Lincoln called USDA "The People's Department." At that time, about half of all Americans lived on farms, compared with about 2 percent today. But through our work on food, agriculture, economic development, science, natural resource conservation and a host of issues, USDA still fulfills Lincoln's vision - touching the lives of every American, every day.

Your claim is that because people grow food to sell, and buy things to enable them to grow food, that commerce is involved in farming, therefore interstate commerce can only be made regular if we have a federal Dept. of Agriculture?

It follows, according to the "progressive" line you are taking, that the power to regulate commerce between the states gives the federal government the power to forbid farmers from growing food for their own consumption as was done during the New Deal and approved by SCOTUS.

In other words, you agree with the claim that the commerce clause gives Congress the authority to control the entire economy, and assert that that was the intention of the people who wrote and ratified the Constitution; to create a government with even more centralized power than the government they just fought a war to get rid of had ever had over them.

In fact, commerce between the states can be made regular merely by voiding state laws that interfere with free trade between the states. No special department is necessary, as the courts already are authorized and have the authority to void unconstitutional state laws, such as those that would restrain or interfere with trade.

Creating a government in order to preserve the Blessings of Liberty is in opposition to the idea of a government that "touches the lives of every American every day".

That Lincoln had some "progressive" views is obvious.

if the commerce clause was in fact intended to give Congress complete control over ever aspect of our economic lives, there was no necessity to enumerate any other powers for Congress. Granting Congress the power to grant copyrights and patents was unnecessary. The "progressive" reading of the commerce clause gives Congress that power. Granting Congress the power to tax was unnecessary if the "progressive" reading of the commerce clause is accepted, since the commerce clause would include any power to tax that Congress chose.

It's simply absurd to read the commerce clause as "progressives" interpret it, just as it's absurd to claim a DoA is "necessary" to put the commerce clause into effect.
  

"Free hate speech"
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 49536
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Executive Branch Departments
Reply #73 - Sep 9th, 2019 at 9:02am
Print Post  
Here's another fill-in-the-blank statement for you LBM- "The Department of Housing and Urban Development was created because it's necessary to execute the Constitutionally granted power to _____."

  

"Free hate speech"
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 49536
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Executive Branch Departments
Reply #74 - Sep 9th, 2019 at 7:05pm
Print Post  
You concede again?
  

"Free hate speech"
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 49536
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Executive Branch Departments
Reply #75 - Sep 9th, 2019 at 7:56pm
Print Post  
Jeff wrote on Sep 9th, 2019 at 7:05pm:
You concede again?

Give it some thought. I'm trying to be tricky! (Blame the worm, his constant trickiness is rubbing off on me. Smiley)
  

"Free hate speech"
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Little Biq Man
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 955
Joined: Mar 17th, 2019
Re: Executive Branch Departments
Reply #76 - Sep 9th, 2019 at 8:15pm
Print Post  
Jeff wrote on Sep 9th, 2019 at 6:00am:
Your claim is that because people grow food to sell, and buy things to enable them to grow food, that commerce is involved in farming, therefore interstate commerce can only be made regular if we have a federal Dept. of Agriculture?


Not my claim, congresses claim.  Which claim the constitution grants them the power to make.

What else ya got?



It follows, according to the "progressive" line you are taking, that the power to regulate commerce between the states gives the federal government the power to forbid farmers from growing food for their own consumption as was done during the New Deal and approved by SCOTUS.

Quote:
In other words, you agree with the claim that the commerce clause gives Congress the authority to control the entire economy, and assert that that was the intention of the people who wrote and ratified the Constitution; to create a government with even more centralized power than the government they just fought a war to get rid of had ever had over them.


From the founders' point of view, that was the beauty of it.  Create a constitution that - to an outsider - appeared to protect the rights of states and individuals, while at the same time, slap each other on the back knowing that congress would eventually do whatever it pleased and that the USSC would let it.

Remember, you already admitted that the purpose of switching from the Articles of Confederation to the U.S. Constitution was to increase the power of the central government.  Why are you surprised that under the constitution the power of the central government has increased?

Quote:
In fact, commerce between the states can be made regular merely by voiding state laws that interfere with free trade between the states. No special department is necessary, as the courts already are authorized and have the authority to void unconstitutional state laws, such as those that would restrain or interfere with trade.


Maybe it could be, but congress decided that creating departments to regulate commerce was necessary and proper.  Just as the constitution empowers them to do.

Quote:
Creating a government in order to preserve the Blessings of Liberty is in opposition to the idea of a government that "touches the lives of every American every day".


That is absurd!

Any government that both collects taxes by force and purports to provide benefits in exchange for those taxes (that we have to pay whether we think the benefits are worth it or not) must touch the lives of everyday Americans. 

If government was honest and said, "We tax you by force because we enjoy the high salaries, power and perks that we could never earn in the free market and we aren't afraid to use violence to keep them, especially since we have most of the firepower," that would actually be better.  To pay for an honest government like that only the very wealthy would have to pay what would amount to extortion/protection money. 

In order to pretend to "help" us, government has to take money from nearly everyone and it has to touch nearly everyone's life.  Unless you're off the grid, a taxing/"helping" government will touch your every day life.

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Little Biq Man
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 955
Joined: Mar 17th, 2019
Re: Executive Branch Departments
Reply #77 - Sep 9th, 2019 at 8:23pm
Print Post  
Jeff wrote on Sep 9th, 2019 at 9:02am:
Here's another fill-in-the-blank statement for you LBM- "The Department of Housing and Urban Development was created because it's necessary to execute the Constitutionally granted power to _____."



Another easy one:

"The Department of Housing and Urban Development was created because it's necessary to execute the Constitutionally granted power to __regulate interstate commerce!___."
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Little Biq Man
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 955
Joined: Mar 17th, 2019
Re: Executive Branch Departments
Reply #78 - Sep 9th, 2019 at 8:23pm
Print Post  
Jeff wrote on Sep 9th, 2019 at 7:56pm:
Give it some thought. I'm trying to be tricky! (Blame the worm, his constant trickiness is rubbing off on me. Smiley)


If you think you are tricky, read my reply above to see how tricky those framers were!


  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jeff
Libertarian Freedom Member
*****
Offline

Libertarian's Forum

Posts: 49536
Location: USA
Joined: Feb 26th, 2014
Re: Executive Branch Departments
Reply #79 - Sep 10th, 2019 at 7:08am
Print Post  
Little Biq Man wrote on Sep 9th, 2019 at 8:23pm:
If you think you are tricky, read my reply above to see how tricky those framers were!


You're just fantasizing again.

Fill in the blank.
  

"Free hate speech"
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 ... 6 7 [8] 9 10 ... 14
Send TopicPrint
 
Libertarian's ForumLibertarian's ForumFreedom Forum › Executive Branch Departments
Libertarian's Forum

Libertarian's Forum Information Rules, Agreement and Privacy Policy