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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Libertarians Awaken To Find An Extra $120k In Their Bank Account (Read 3384 times)
Jeff
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Re: Libertarians Awaken To Find An Extra $120k In Their Bank Account
Reply #150 - Oct 2nd, 2019 at 8:20am
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 1st, 2019 at 11:03pm:
Why only land?
For things the King stole and gave to his Lords and Barons, who then sold them, legal title transferred to the person who bought the thing. That's because the King owned everything in the first place, so had every right to take it and sell it.

It's a legal theory that's been dispensed with everywhere except in countries ruled by Communist Parties...

Well, maybe not quite... I think this is a case of illegal theft by a government:

https://fee.org/articles/yes-a-currency-devaluation-is-very-much-like-a-tax/?utm...

Here's another instance:

https://reason.com/2019/09/30/elizabeth-warrens-wealth-tax-is-punishment-not-tax...

And another:

https://reason.com/2019/10/01/100-million-for-a-minor-league-ballpark/?utm_mediu...
  

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Re: Libertarians Awaken To Find An Extra $120k In Their Bank Account
Reply #151 - Oct 2nd, 2019 at 10:26am
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Jeff wrote on Oct 2nd, 2019 at 8:20am:
For things the King stole and gave to his Lords and Barons, who then sold them, legal title transferred to the person who bought the thing. That's because the King owned everything in the first place, so had every right to take it and sell it.


Alright, so what if the King stole something other than land, like a painting? Wouldn't the same logic apply?
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
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Re: Libertarians Awaken To Find An Extra $120k In Their Bank Account
Reply #152 - Oct 2nd, 2019 at 2:56pm
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 2nd, 2019 at 10:26am:
Alright, so what if the King stole something other than land, like a painting? Wouldn't the same logic apply?
Since Kings originally claimed to own everything, why not? The King could give away a painting if he chose to.
  

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Re: Libertarians Awaken To Find An Extra $120k In Their Bank Account
Reply #153 - Oct 2nd, 2019 at 10:14pm
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Jeff wrote on Oct 2nd, 2019 at 2:56pm:
Since Kings originally claimed to own everything, why not? The King could give away a painting if he chose to.


And if that painting, stolen from a Jew, went from the king to, say, a Nazi, and now the Jew and the Nazi are both dead, and the Jew's kid wants the painting back from the Nazi's kid, should he get it?
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
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Re: Libertarians Awaken To Find An Extra $120k In Their Bank Account
Reply #154 - Oct 3rd, 2019 at 7:01am
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 2nd, 2019 at 10:14pm:
And if that painting, stolen from a Jew, went from the king to, say, a Nazi, and now the Jew and the Nazi are both dead, and the Jew's kid wants the painting back from the Nazi's kid, should he get it?
Another absurd hypothetical?

Fine, The Nazis plundered conquered countries, but they were defeated before any of their plunder could be passed on to heirs. When Hitler's regime fell, any possible claim of legitimate ownership of the plunder by the defeated plunderers ended.

Anyway, Hitler wasn't a King. What he stole (or what was stolen because he enabled the theft) had no chance at being called his legitimate possessions in the first place, not even under absurd old "laws" that claimed the King owned everything.

As I've said, let someone with a legitimate claim to the land I own take their claim to court.

"Some of my ancestors might have lived near there (until another tribe pushed them out), and maybe hunted on your property" is not a legitimate claim of ownership of my property.

I'll be clear, the Nazi's kid has no legitimate claim to the painting.
  

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Re: Libertarians Awaken To Find An Extra $120k In Their Bank Account
Reply #155 - Oct 3rd, 2019 at 10:50am
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Jeff wrote on Oct 3rd, 2019 at 7:01am:
Anyway, Hitler wasn't a King. What he stole (or what was stolen because he enabled the theft) had no chance at being called his legitimate possessions in the first place, not even under absurd old "laws" that claimed the King owned everything.


So what constitutes a King for the purposes of this discussion? Does it have to be the word king, or is there a meaning here that would separate a dictator by some relevant quality, that would affect property ownership, from a king?

The land in America was taken from the Indians by a government that did not include kings any more than Nazi Germany had kings.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
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Re: Libertarians Awaken To Find An Extra $120k In Their Bank Account
Reply #156 - Oct 3rd, 2019 at 1:02pm
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 3rd, 2019 at 10:50am:
So what constitutes a King for the purposes of this discussion? Does it have to be the word king, or is there a meaning here that would separate a dictator by some relevant quality, that would affect property ownership, from a king?

The land in America was taken from the Indians by a government that did not include kings any more than Nazi Germany had kings.
European Kings divided up the New World before they even knew what was there or how big it was or what shape. The earliest European explorers claimed any land they encountered in the name of their King.

Hitler was a dictator of the National Socialist variety, but he didn't claim to personally own all of Germany.

I'm sorry to say, I've lost track of the point you're trying to make, except you seem to still want to know if stolen property is inheritable? No, it's not. Not morally or legally.

You also seem to be claiming that land taken by conquest has the same legal status as stolen personal property. It doesn't, not until recent UN conventions that guarantee current borders (even if Tibet seems to fall inside China's border)...

Anyway, England is not going to be returned to the supposed heirs of its first aboriginal tribes. Neither is China. Nor are the various heirs of ethnic groups within Russia going to be given back all the land that was once considered their tribal territory. The U.S. isnt going to be returned to the heirs of whichever tribe first set foot in North America and claimed the entire continent for themselves.

If this causes you mental anguish and moral outrage, get a hobby and try to forget about the injustices of the distant past. Smiley
  

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Re: Libertarians Awaken To Find An Extra $120k In Their Bank Account
Reply #157 - Oct 3rd, 2019 at 9:20pm
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Jeff wrote on Oct 3rd, 2019 at 1:02pm:
European Kings divided up the New World before they even knew what was there or how big it was or what shape. The earliest European explorers claimed any land they encountered in the name of their King.

Hitler was a dictator of the National Socialist variety, but he didn't claim to personally own all of Germany.


So when, and only when, a King makes that claim, then takes land (but not paintings) by conquest and gives it out, only then do the new owners become legitimate?

Jeff wrote on Oct 3rd, 2019 at 1:02pm:
I'm sorry to say, I've lost track of the point you're trying to make, except you seem to still want to know if stolen property is inheritable? No, it's not. Not morally or legally.


I'm not trying to make a point. I'm trying to understand property rights.

Jeff wrote on Oct 3rd, 2019 at 1:02pm:
You also seem to be claiming that land taken by conquest has the same legal status as stolen personal property. It doesn't.


Okay... why not? What's the difference between ownership of a parcel of land and ownership of a boat or a car or a starship?

Jeff wrote on Oct 3rd, 2019 at 1:02pm:
Anyway, England is not going to be returned to the supposed heirs of its first aboriginal tribes. Neither is China. Nor are the various heirs of ethnic groups within Russia going to be given back all the land that was once considered their tribal territory. The U.S. isn't going to be returned to the heirs of whichever tribe first set foot in North America and claimed the entire continent for themselves.

If this causes you mental anguish and moral outrage, get a hobby and try to forget about the injustices of the distant past. Smiley


You seem to forget that I'm a Vulcan. It is illogical for me to stress myself out over things which I cannot change.

I'm not asking whether anyone can change it in any case.

I'm just asking about property rights. Why is land so special? Why can title to land (but not anything else) become legitimate through theft by a King and then subsequent gifting?
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Re: Libertarians Awaken To Find An Extra $120k In Their Bank Account
Reply #158 - Oct 4th, 2019 at 7:39am
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 3rd, 2019 at 9:20pm:
I'm just asking about property rights. Why is land so special? Why can title to land (but not anything else) become legitimate through theft by a King and then subsequent gifting?
It's Kings that were (supposedly) "special", not land.

If you have a legitimate claim to any property that was stolen from your forbears, take it to court. Prove it should actually be yours, and the court will award it to you.

If, in visiting my house, you see a painting you think is one that was stolen from your great grandfather's house, a painting I only know was bought by my father at a garage sale, it will not be enough for you to say "I think that was my great grandfather's painting."
  

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Re: Libertarians Awaken To Find An Extra $120k In Their Bank Account
Reply #159 - Oct 5th, 2019 at 1:44am
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Jeff wrote on Oct 4th, 2019 at 7:39am:
It's Kings that were (supposedly) "special", not land.

If you have a legitimate claim to any property that was stolen from your forbears, take it to court. Prove it should actually be yours, and the court will award it to you.

If, in visiting my house, you see a painting you think is one that was stolen from your great grandfather's house, a painting I only know was bought by my father at a garage sale, it will not be enough for you to say "I think that was my great grandfather's painting."


I'm not asking about what will happen in court, or what is provable, but about basic property rights.

If it really is the Jew's painting, and the Jew's kid wants it back from the Nazi's kid, whose painting is it really?
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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