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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Libertarians Awaken To Find An Extra $120k In Their Bank Account (Read 692 times)
Industry
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Re: Libertarians Awaken To Find An Extra $120k In Their Bank Account
Reply #20 - Sep 10th, 2019 at 5:35pm
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Jeff wrote on Sep 10th, 2019 at 5:23pm:
They spent it all. Don't you understand what actually happened?


Yes I do dumbass read the rest of my post let the people who went on shopping spree go to the car place and say whoops it was a mistake and let the regular people take it back if the bank can take it back.


Bank give to regular people says whoops mistake gimme back all the money now.


Regular people give it to car store let them say whoops gimme back my money now.
  
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Re: Libertarians Awaken To Find An Extra $120k In Their Bank Account
Reply #21 - Sep 10th, 2019 at 6:33pm
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Industry wrote on Sep 10th, 2019 at 5:35pm:
Yes I do dumbass read the rest of my post let the people who went on shopping spree go to the car place and say whoops it was a mistake and let the regular people take it back if the bank can take it back.


Bank give to regular people says whoops mistake gimme back all the money now.


Regular people give it to car store let them say whoops gimme back my money now.
Well, thanks for clearing that up...

Where did you say the money ended up?

Wait, sorry, you can't say... It will probably take years for lawyers to get it all...

The people who owned the money got screwed. Robbed.

Edit: Except the bank will put the money back in their account, so it's really the bank that got robbed.
  

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Re: Libertarians Awaken To Find An Extra $120k In Their Bank Account
Reply #22 - Sep 10th, 2019 at 8:16pm
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Jeff wrote on Sep 10th, 2019 at 6:33pm:
Well, thanks for clearing that up...

Where did you say the money ended up?

Wait, sorry, you can't say... It will probably take years for lawyers to get it all...

The people who owned the money got screwed. Robbed.

Edit: Except the bank will put the money back in their account, so it's really the bank that got robbed.


That is so interesting that you use the word "robbed" to describe a situation in which a bank gave people money and they spent it.  Especially since  you renounce the use of the word robbed to describe government agents taking people's property literally at gunpoint.

But, yes.  The people who got the windfall knew that they were not entitled to it.  So, please answer this question very precisely:

How much of middle class taxpayers' hard earned money should be spent by government to punish a couple of Pensylvania hillbillies who were drowning in bills and thought for once in their lives they got lucky?  How much of my money should be spent helping a multi-billion dollar bank whose executives make nine-figure salaries (that's hundreds of millions) to make an example of those people to show that banks are supposed to take advantage of little people and never the other way around?

Please provide an exact dollar amount that each taxpayer should pay, or perhaps a minimum and maximum.

Thanks.

  
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Re: Libertarians Awaken To Find An Extra $120k In Their Bank Account
Reply #23 - Sep 10th, 2019 at 9:33pm
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SkyChief wrote on Sep 10th, 2019 at 11:25am:
Wrong.  The couple did nothing.  they had zero culpability in the bank's accounting snafu.

THEFT (noun)
The action or crime of stealing,  robbery.


When the government sticks a gun to your head and demands that you hand over a third of your earnings each year, THAT'S THEFT.

I'm surprised you are so off-base on this one, Oppo.     We will need to resume your training.


I didn't say the couple was responsible for the bank's mistake. I only say they are absolutely responsible for the same thing everyone is: Don't take things that don't belong to you.

And yes, picking up a penny off the street is theft in the same way. It's theft from whoever the rightful owner of that penny is. Will you be prosecuted for it? No. Is it fair that the bank can? No. But we're not going for fair here.

I'm glad I slept on this one. I feel I got the right answer, and the day it was posted, I was about to give the wrong one.

Little Biq Man wrote on Sep 10th, 2019 at 8:16pm:
How much of middle class taxpayers' hard earned money should be spent by government to punish a couple of Pensylvania hillbillies who were drowning in bills and thought for once in their lives they got lucky?


All, if necessary. But in a libertarian society, it won't be necessary. Just let the bank punish their own criminals in any way they see fit that is just and proportionate. (Ideally what is just and proportionate will be up to the bank's affiliated private security company, since you like asking that.)

What you and LBM are forgetting is that the government is already stopping the bank from punishing their own criminals. The government has a monopoly on force. It is their obligation to use it to protect victims to the extent that they stop the victims from protecting themselves.

Believe it or not, before I came to this forum I believed exactly what LBM posted about lending. That is exactly how I would have run a State, if you gave me one: Lend if you like, borrow if you like, but do so at your own risk; the State will not break their legs for you.

Like it or not, taking what does not belong to you is theft, which is aggression. And if the State should do anything, it should punish aggression.

Industry wrote on Sep 10th, 2019 at 5:35pm:
Bank give to regular people says whoops mistake gimme back all the money now.


Regular people give it to car store let them say whoops gimme back my money now.


By saying "take it back" you're muddying the issue. The only phrase we need here is voluntary transaction. When the couple took the money from the bank, that was not a voluntary transaction. When they agreed to pay for a car, that was a voluntary transaction.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Re: Libertarians Awaken To Find An Extra $120k In Their Bank Account
Reply #24 - Sep 10th, 2019 at 9:39pm
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Jeff wrote on Sep 10th, 2019 at 2:51pm:
They behaved immorally.

If the money in question fell out of an old widow's purse, and you saw it fall, and picked it up and spent it, you committed an immoral act in exactly the same way.


I would like to have a discussion about this if you can understand that I'm 100% on your side and I would only be playing devil's advocate.

If not, then we will simply not have that discussion.

SkyChief wrote on Sep 10th, 2019 at 4:06pm:
If my neighbor's avocado tree (which sits near the property boundary) drops fruit which lands in my yard, I can gather them up and sell them at the farmer's market.

If my neighbor demands that I pay him the money I got for the avocados that fell in my yard, I will laugh at him.

Hopefully, he will laugh, too.


This is a special case because if they're his avocados, then his property is trespassing on, and rotting in, and ruining, your yard, and he owes you.

Of course he will relinquish them.

But he doesn't have to.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Re: Libertarians Awaken To Find An Extra $120k In Their Bank Account
Reply #25 - Sep 10th, 2019 at 10:27pm
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The Opposition wrote on Sep 10th, 2019 at 9:33pm:
All, if necessary. But in a libertarian society, it won't be necessary. Just let the bank punish their own criminals in any way they see fit that is just and proportionate. (Ideally what is just and proportionate will be up to the bank's affiliated private security company, since you like asking that.)

What you and LBM are forgetting is that the government is already stopping the bank from punishing their own criminals. The government has a monopoly on force. It is their obligation to use it to protect victims to the extent that they stop the victims from protecting themselves.


Wow.

Just, wow.

I expected that my question would stop anyone who wanted that couple punished in their tracks.  Your answer puts me in awe of your intellect.

Quote:
Believe it or not, before I came to this forum I believed exactly what LBM posted about lending. That is exactly how I would have run a State, if you gave me one: Lend if you like, borrow if you like, but do so at your own risk; the State will not break their legs for you.

Like it or not, taking what does not belong to you is theft, which is aggression. And if the State should do anything, it should punish aggression.


By saying "take it back" you're muddying the issue. The only phrase we need here is voluntary transaction. When the couple took the money from the bank, that was not a voluntary transaction. When they agreed to pay for a car, that was a voluntary transaction.


I have no way to answer that question without some deep thought.

Before I do my deep thought, I wanted to acknowledge that I am taken aback by your logic.

  
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Re: Libertarians Awaken To Find An Extra $120k In Their Bank Account
Reply #26 - Sep 11th, 2019 at 8:09am
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The Opposition wrote on Sep 10th, 2019 at 9:33pm:
But in a libertarian society, it won't be necessary. Just let the bank punish their own criminals in any way they see fit that is just and proportionate. (Ideally what is just and proportionate will be up to the bank's affiliated private security company, since you like asking that.)

You keep imagining a society where everyone is a libertarian... What do you plan to do with all the people who aren't libertarians? Kill them? Ship them to Vulcan?

What you are basically talking about with your "banks punishing criminals however they see fit" is a state of anarchy, and in such a society, individual liberty is not protected, in fact it will be very scarce. The only "free" people will be the most powerful, and their "freedom" will be contingent on no more powerful person coming along and killing or enslaving them. Cry
  

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Re: Libertarians Awaken To Find An Extra $120k In Their Bank Account
Reply #27 - Sep 11th, 2019 at 8:10am
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The Opposition wrote on Sep 10th, 2019 at 9:39pm:
I would like to have a discussion about this if you can understand that I'm 100% on your side and I would only be playing devil's advocate.

It's like you said, taking something you know doesn't belong to you is wrong.
  

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Re: Libertarians Awaken To Find An Extra $120k In Their Bank Account
Reply #28 - Sep 11th, 2019 at 9:22am
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The Opposition wrote on Sep 10th, 2019 at 9:33pm:
I didn't say the couple was responsible for the bank's mistake. I only say they are absolutely responsible for the same thing everyone is: Don't take things that don't belong to you.

And yes, picking up a penny off the street is theft in the same way. It's theft from whoever the rightful owner of that penny is. Will you be prosecuted for it? No. Is it fair that the bank can? No. But we're not going for fair here.

I'm glad I slept on this one. I feel I got the right answer, and the day it was posted, I was about to give the wrong one.


All, if necessary. But in a libertarian society, it won't be necessary. Just let the bank punish their own criminals in any way they see fit that is just and proportionate. (Ideally what is just and proportionate will be up to the bank's affiliated private security company, since you like asking that.)

What you and LBM are forgetting is that the government is already stopping the bank from punishing their own criminals. The government has a monopoly on force. It is their obligation to use it to protect victims to the extent that they stop the victims from protecting themselves.

Believe it or not, before I came to this forum I believed exactly what LBM posted about lending. That is exactly how I would have run a State, if you gave me one: Lend if you like, borrow if you like, but do so at your own risk; the State will not break their legs for you.



Unlike my imitator, I have no trouble at all answering that point (but I do acknowledge it is a good one).

It is true that banks are forbidden from reaching out and punishing people who take the bank's money, whether at gunpoint or by simply accepting an accidental gift.  But banks are not at all forbidden from having a policy requiring minimum wage tellers to ask their 3K per month assistant manager to supervise and double check when they handle transactions over one hundred K.  Banks are certainly not forbidden from hiring more qualified and trustworthy people by offering higher wages.  Nor are they forbidden from buying insurance against losses caused by poor management.

Banks don't hire better workers, because hiring a thousand better workers nationwide for even as little as a thousand dollars more per year would cost a million dollars, far more than they lost in this mistake.  Financially speaking, that is a very wise choice.  But since they do not share with me the wealth they create by paying minimum wage to people who handle hundreds of thousands of dollars, I should not have to share the risk they take by doing that.

If I sell my used car to my neighbor for 10K cash and put it in my bank account, the bank will report me immediately to the central government as obviously a drug dealer, money launderer or financier of terrorism.  Since 10K is enough to render me guilty until proven innocent, then twelve times that amount should be enough to trigger some level of fiduciary concern on the part of the bank's management.

So, I cannot go along with the idea that the bank's claim of victimhood means that it must have unlimited access to my paycheck, my real property and my personal property in order to spend upward of a million dollars imprisoning the people that the bank accidentally enriched, however unfairly.

 
  

Snarky no more!
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Re: Libertarians Awaken To Find An Extra $120k In Their Bank Account
Reply #29 - Sep 11th, 2019 at 9:57am
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The Opposition wrote on Sep 10th, 2019 at 9:33pm:
I didn't say the couple was responsible for the bank's mistake. I only say they are absolutely responsible for the same thing everyone is: Don't take things that don't belong to you.

And yes, picking up a penny off the street is theft in the same way. It's theft from whoever the rightful owner of that penny is. Will you be prosecuted for it? No. Is it fair that the bank can? No. But we're not going for fair here.
Picking up a penny is theft?    Really?

If my neighbor's avocado tree (which sits near the property boundary) drops fruit which lands in my yard, I can gather them up and sell them at the farmer's market.

If my neighbor demands that I pay him the money I got for the avocados that fell in my yard, I will laugh at him.  I owe him nothing. 

It was the neighbor's mistake allowing his avocado tree branches to grow onto my property.  The avocados that fell in my yard became mine when they hit the ground.  No theft occurred.

Exactly the same principle applies with the $120k that got deposited in the couple's bank account.   The bank needs to write it off as loss, and takes the necessary steps to see that it doesn't happen again.
  
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