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The Opposition
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Re: Libertarians Awaken To Find An Extra $120k In Their Bank Account
Reply #30 - Sep 11th, 2019 at 10:13am
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Jeff wrote on Sep 11th, 2019 at 8:10am:
It's like you said, taking something you know doesn't belong to you is wrong.


It's theft. Taking what does not belong to you is theft.

I just want to play devil's advocate to straighten out a particular issue that would be unique to digital property, which most money is. Again, if you think this means I don't understand that taking what does not belong to you is theft, we can simply not have the conversation.

Little Big Man wrote on Sep 11th, 2019 at 9:22am:
Unlike my imitator, I have no trouble at all answering that point (but I do acknowledge it is a good one).

It is true that banks are forbidden from reaching out and punishing people who take the bank's money, whether at gunpoint or by simply accepting an accidental gift.  But banks are not at all forbidden from having a policy requiring minimum wage tellers to ask their 3K per month assistant manager to supervise and double check when they handle transactions over one hundred K.  Banks are certainly not forbidden from hiring more qualified and trustworthy people by offering higher wages.  Nor are they forbidden from buying insurance against losses caused by poor management.

Banks don't hire better workers, because hiring a thousand better workers nationwide for even as little as a thousand dollars more per year would cost a million dollars, far more than they lost in this mistake.  Financially speaking, that is a very wise choice.  But since they do not share with me the wealth they create by paying minimum wage to people who handle hundreds of thousands of dollars, I should not have to share the risk they take by doing that.

If I sell my used car to my neighbor for 10K cash and put it in my bank account, the bank will report me immediately to the central government as obviously a drug dealer, money launderer or financier of terrorism.  Since 10K is enough to render me guilty until proven innocent, then twelve times that amount should be enough to trigger some level of fiduciary concern on the part of the bank's management.


And I could hire a bodyguard, which would presumably prevent many potential instances of me being shot. The fact that I don't is not grounds to deny justice to my murderer, even though it will cost a shitton to imprison him.

Little Big Man wrote on Sep 11th, 2019 at 9:22am:
So, I cannot go along with the idea that the bank's claim of victimhood means that it must have unlimited access to my paycheck, my real property and my personal property in order to spend upward of a million dollars imprisoning the people that the bank accidentally enriched, however unfairly.


The State exists for one purpose: To punish aggression. If you don't want them on that task, you're just saying they shouldn't exist, and I agree with you. But as long as they do exist, they should be on task.

(They should also concentrate on extracting money from the couple, not charging the taxpayer, and Morton suggested slavery. Here is the article and the exchange about it.)

https://scholarship.law.georgetown.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2570&context=...

The Opposition wrote on Aug 25th, 2018 at 1:39pm:
One thing I find troubling is that on page 289, it says that an untrustworthy criminal will be forced into an employment project. Isn't that slavery? If slavery can be forced in order to right a wrong, then the Mises article on why people can't be expected to keep their promises falls apart. Their only argument is that making people keep their promises is tantamount to slavery, which can't be inflicted no matter what.

It also says the criminal will only be forced to make right the wrong - no punitive damages. No preserving the "hurt" of the old, barbaric system, because it's not really a deterrent.

That's fine, except that then, people will always steal. If I steal a toaster, I can, if not caught, gain a toaster. And the worst that will happen is that I will be forced to pay for the toaster anyway.

And again, I agree with you in principle, which means I agree with you in reality. The restitution model should displace the punishment model.

When I said I prefer the punishment model, I just meant that I estimated the restitution model would result in me being murdered, and then not made whole, whether I was insured or not. I will still advocate the restitution model, because it is right, I was just stating what I prefer on the basis of what causes me the least harm.


GEMorton wrote on Aug 26th, 2018 at 11:24am:
Yes, it is slavery. But as with all other rights, you absolve others from the obligation to respect your right not to be enslaved if you violate someone else's rights, just as you absolve them from respecting your right to liberty (when you are imprisoned), and your right to property (when you are fined).

The 13th Amendment to the US Constitution outlaws slavery, "except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted . . ."

Correct; there would be no punitive damages. But the costs to the State to investigate, apprehend, try, and house the perpetrator would be added to the restitution obligation.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
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Re: Libertarians Awaken To Find An Extra $120k In Their Bank Account
Reply #31 - Sep 11th, 2019 at 10:17am
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SkyChief wrote on Sep 11th, 2019 at 9:57am:
Picking up a penny is theft?    Really?


Technically yes. It's theft from the rightful owner of that penny. It's just so minuscule and would be so hard to punish that no one will ever be punished. But don't confuse this with the act not being aggression.

This principle is a particular boon in this situation because it means there will be a lot of careless people who aren't bothering about who they're technically stealing from, and then they can be punished. With Morton's solution, this makes the bank even more money.

Having the Non-Aggression Principle is particularly beneficial to the moneyed, which is what we're going for, right? If you want the means to do what the bank did, that's a motivation to participate in the economy, work harder, and make lots of money, which will benefit everyone.

SkyChief wrote on Sep 11th, 2019 at 9:57am:
If my neighbor's avocado tree (which sits near the property boundary) drops fruit which lands in my yard, I can gather them up and sell them at the farmer's market.

If my neighbor demands that I pay him the money I got for the avocados that fell in my yard, I will laugh at him.  I owe him nothing. 

It was the neighbor's mistake allowing his avocado tree branches to grow onto my property.  The avocados that fell in my yard became mine when they hit the ground.  No theft occurred.

Exactly the same principle applies with the $120k that got deposited in the couple's bank account.   The bank needs to write it off as loss, and takes the necessary steps to see that it doesn't happen again.


There's another principle in play with the avocados and that's this:

If the avocados are his, they are trespassing on your property. They are rotting on your property. They are causing damage, and he's liable.

So of course he'll relinquish them at the slightest indication that you consider them yours, but he doesn't have to.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
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Re: Libertarians Awaken To Find An Extra $120k In Their Bank Account
Reply #32 - Sep 11th, 2019 at 11:42am
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The Opposition wrote on Sep 11th, 2019 at 10:17am:
There's another principle in play with the avocados and that's this:

If the avocados are his, they are trespassing on your property. They are rotting on your property. They are causing damage, and he's liable.

So of course he'll relinquish them at the slightest indication that you consider them yours, but he doesn't have to.
The avocados are his as long as they are still on his tree.

Once the avocados fall in my yard, they belong to me. He can ask for them back, but I am under no obligation to give them back.

Imagine the call he makes to 911:

911 Operator:  "What is the nature of your emergency?"

Neighbor:  "Some of the avocados from my tree fell in SkyChief's yard and he won't give them back. He laughed at me and said he intends to sell them at the farmer's market!"

911 Operator:  "Is anyone injured?"

Neighbor:  "Well, not seriously, but my feelings got hurt when he laughed at me. . .  Do something, please!"
  

Governments will always devise ways to deprive an honest man of his money or property, and claim that it's legal.
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Re: Libertarians Awaken To Find An Extra $120k In Their Bank Account
Reply #33 - Sep 11th, 2019 at 3:02pm
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Man just ignore Opposition on this one he just trying to get banana sticker.
  
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Re: Libertarians Awaken To Find An Extra $120k In Their Bank Account
Reply #34 - Sep 11th, 2019 at 4:01pm
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The Opposition wrote on Sep 11th, 2019 at 10:13am:
I just want to play devil's advocate to straighten out a particular issue that would be unique to digital property, which most money is.
Go ahead.
  

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Re: Libertarians Awaken To Find An Extra $120k In Their Bank Account
Reply #35 - Sep 11th, 2019 at 4:03pm
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SkyChief wrote on Sep 11th, 2019 at 11:42am:
The avocados are his as long as they are still on his tree.

Once the avocados fall in my yard, they belong to me. He can ask for them back, but I am under no obligation to give them back.

Imagine the call he makes to 911:

911 Operator:  "What is the nature of your emergency?"

Neighbor:  "Some of the avocados from my tree fell in SkyChief's yard and he won't give them back. He laughed at me and said he intends to sell them at the farmer's market!"

911 Operator:  "Is anyone injured?"

Neighbor:  "Well, not seriously, but my feelings got hurt when he laughed at me. . .  Do something, please!"
I think in most places you can cut limbs off of trees if the limbs hang over your property, so if you want the avocados, just cut off the limbs when they are ripe. Smiley
  

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Re: Libertarians Awaken To Find An Extra $120k In Their Bank Account
Reply #36 - Sep 11th, 2019 at 4:41pm
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Jeff wrote on Sep 11th, 2019 at 4:03pm:
I think in most places you can cut limbs off of trees if the limbs hang over your property, so if you want the avocados, just cut off the limbs when they are ripe. Smiley
If I cut off the limbs, my source of free avocados is gone.
  

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Re: Libertarians Awaken To Find An Extra $120k In Their Bank Account
Reply #37 - Sep 11th, 2019 at 5:46pm
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SkyChief wrote on Sep 11th, 2019 at 4:41pm:
If I cut off the limbs, my source of free avocados is gone.
Sorry, I misunderstood, I thought you hated avocados and were annoyed they fell in your yard and rotted and made a mess when you ran over them or stepped in them.
  

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Re: Libertarians Awaken To Find An Extra $120k In Their Bank Account
Reply #38 - Sep 11th, 2019 at 6:00pm
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Jeff wrote on Sep 11th, 2019 at 5:46pm:
Sorry, I misunderstood, I thought you hated avocados and were annoyed they fell in your yard and rotted and made a mess when you ran over them or stepped in them.
No, no,  I love avocados.  The grocery store sells them for $1.50 each.   

Folks are happy to pay me a buck apiece for them at the farmer's market.  Smiley
  

Governments will always devise ways to deprive an honest man of his money or property, and claim that it's legal.
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Re: Libertarians Awaken To Find An Extra $120k In Their Bank Account
Reply #39 - Sep 11th, 2019 at 6:04pm
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SkyChief wrote on Sep 11th, 2019 at 6:00pm:
No, no,  I love avocados.  The grocery store sells them for $1.50 each.   

Folks are happy to pay me a buck apiece for them at the farmer's market.  Smiley
I hope you wait until they fall off... Are they damaged by falling on the ground?

Edit: Silly me, Avocado trees drop lots of fruit, none of it any good to eat. I wouldn't put up with that in my yard.

https://homeguides.sfgate.com/care-hass-avocado-trees-after-set-fruit-prevent-fr...
  

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