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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Taxation As A Weapon (Read 1496 times)
Jeff
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Re: Taxation As A Weapon
Reply #50 - Dec 2nd, 2019 at 8:40am
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kaz wrote on Dec 1st, 2019 at 7:56pm:
According to you, the 16th amendment doesn't say anything at all
What I've said repeatedly (please pay attention) is that the 16th A. was a direct response to the S. Ct.'s Pollock decision.

That decision held that taxing incomes derived from the use of property was essentially the same as taxing the property itself, and therefore that taxing incomes derived from the use of property was illegal unless the tax was apportioned as all Direct taxes must be.

If you read Pollock, and read the 16th Amendment, you can easily see that the Amendment simply removed the requirement that had been newly created by SCOTUS that taxes on incomes derived from the use of property were Direct, and must be apportioned. That was a strange notion that had never before or since had any credence in our courts, and Pollock was overturned piecemeal, making the 16th Amendment superfluous.

The 16th Amendment had a temporary purpose, but with the overruling of the Pollock decision, it no longer does anything and should be removed from the Constitution.


  

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Re: Taxation As A Weapon
Reply #51 - Dec 2nd, 2019 at 9:27am
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Jeff wrote on Dec 2nd, 2019 at 8:40am:
What I've said repeatedly (please pay attention) is that the 16th A. was a direct response to the S. Ct.'s Pollock decision.

That decision held that taxing incomes derived from the use of property was essentially the same as taxing the property itself, and therefore that taxing incomes derived from the use of property was illegal unless the tax was apportioned as all Direct taxes must be.

If you read Pollock, and read the 16th Amendment, you can easily see that the Amendment simply removed the requirement that had been newly created by SCOTUS that taxes on incomes derived from the use of property were Direct, and must be apportioned. That was a strange notion that had never before or since had any credence in our courts, and Pollock was overturned piecemeal, making the 16th Amendment superfluous.

The 16th Amendment had a temporary purpose, but with the overruling of the Pollock decision, it no longer does anything and should be removed from the Constitution.




"The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration."

Umm, it doesn't say income from property, it says income from "whatever source derived."  Which means the income tax can tax all income.

Can you imagine if you and BM were born in the same town?  One town with two idiots?  It would have been staggering
  

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Jeff
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Re: Taxation As A Weapon
Reply #52 - Dec 2nd, 2019 at 9:49am
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kaz wrote on Dec 2nd, 2019 at 9:27am:
"The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration."

Umm, it doesn't say income from property, it says income from "whatever source derived."  Which means the income tax can tax all income.


Yes, and prior to the Pollock decision, Congress could tax incomes derived from any source, as long as the tax was uniform.

The Pollock decision changed that original taxing power, claiming it was unconstitutional to tax incomes derived from the use of property unless the tax on incomes derived from the use of property was apportioned.

What the Pollock decision did was to remove taxes on incomes derived from the use of property from the category of Indirect taxes, to which it had always previously belonged, and arbitrarily place it into the category of Direct taxes, to which it had never, before or since, been held to belong.

It was a poorly reasoned decision (wrong in fact) and it led directly to the passage of the 16th Amendment, which was designed carefully for the single purpose of rendering the Pollock decision null land void, thus returning the taxation of incomes derived from the use of property to the category of taxes to which it had always belonged- Indirect.

If you did not know that the 16th Amendment was a direct response to the Pollock decision, you do now. Smiley

The 16th Amendment did not remove the Constitutional requirement that all Direct taxes must be apportioned.

If you think that a tax laid on wages and salaries is not Direct in it's substance and effect, you are free to make arguments showing how a tax on wages or salaries is Indirect. Good luck.
  

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Re: Taxation As A Weapon
Reply #53 - Dec 2nd, 2019 at 10:11am
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Jeff wrote on Dec 2nd, 2019 at 9:49am:
The 16th Amendment did not remove the Constitutional requirement that all Direct taxes must be apportioned


"The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration."

Wait until word of prohibition finally gets to your backwater hillbilly village, you're going to shit a brick.  That is until news of the repeal gets there a decade or so later ...
  

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Jeff
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Re: Taxation As A Weapon
Reply #54 - Dec 2nd, 2019 at 10:28am
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kaz wrote on Dec 2nd, 2019 at 10:11am:
"The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration."
Yes, "incomes", just what the Pollock case was about, specifically, income derived from the use of property, and it was just such incomes that SCOTUS decided in Pollock should be placed in the category of Direct taxes.

Since the question in Pollock wasn't whether or not a tax laid on wages and salaries was Direct, SCOTUS didn't address that question. Nor have they ever.

Whether or not wages and salaries are defined as "incomes", the substance and effect of any tax laid on wages and salaries is not altered.

I define wages and salaries as "the bread earned by working people, the fruits of their labors", but that definition also has no effect on the substance and effect of any tax laid on them.

The only pertinent question, Constitutionally, is, "Is a tax laid on wages and salaries Direct, or Indirect?

If Direct, it must be apportioned. If Indirect, it must be uniform.

Are you arguing that a tax laid on wages and salaries is Indirect? Or that the 16th Amendment acted to eliminate the limits on the taxing power?

Suppose Congress/IRS decided to define the increase in the value of your property due to inflation as "income" and tax you on that inflation created increase in your wealth with an unapportioned tax, the Income Tax...

Would not the tax still be a tax on your property merely because of your ownership of it? Yes. It would still be a Direct tax, regardless of the definition.
  

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Re: Taxation As A Weapon
Reply #55 - Dec 2nd, 2019 at 10:54am
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Jeff wrote on Dec 2nd, 2019 at 10:28am:
specifically, income derived from the use of property


"The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration."
  

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Jeff
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Re: Taxation As A Weapon
Reply #56 - Dec 2nd, 2019 at 2:33pm
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kaz wrote on Dec 2nd, 2019 at 10:54am:
"The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration."
Right, but Congress must still apportion any Direct tax that it levies, and a tax laid on wages and salaries is Direct.

Wages and salaries are not "incomes".

Wages and salaries are exchanged for your labor. Incomes are derived from the use of your property.

Taxing the first is Direct taxation. Taxing the second is Indirect taxation.
  

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Re: Taxation As A Weapon
Reply #57 - Dec 2nd, 2019 at 3:26pm
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Jeff wrote on Dec 2nd, 2019 at 2:33pm:
Right, but Congress must still apportion any Direct tax that it levies, and a tax laid on wages and salaries is Direct


"The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration"
  

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Jeff
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Re: Taxation As A Weapon
Reply #58 - Dec 2nd, 2019 at 3:31pm
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kaz wrote on Dec 2nd, 2019 at 3:26pm:
"The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration"
That amendment did not arise out of thin air, and it does not exist independent of the rest of the Constitution.

Perhaps that's beyond your understanding...

You sound like a petulant four year old.

Can you not at least try to explain why you think wages and salaries are "incomes", and how the substance and effect of a tax laid on them is not Direct? Of course you can't, so you refuse to try.
  

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Re: Taxation As A Weapon
Reply #59 - Dec 2nd, 2019 at 3:40pm
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Jeff wrote on Dec 2nd, 2019 at 3:31pm:
That amendment did not arise out of thin air


So now you think that amendments don't mean what they say.  Of course you don't.  It's more of your hillbilly whiskey swilling ODD bull crap
  

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