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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) How About Actually Forming "A Well-Regulated Militia" (Read 2238 times)
SkyChief
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Re: How About Actually Forming "A Well-Regulated Militia"
Reply #50 - Sep 16th, 2019 at 1:54pm
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Thomas Jefferson does a much better job of explaining why we need to have the equivalent firepower as our government law enforcers:

“What country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms!”

Brilliantly stated.   Smiley
  

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Jeff
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Re: How About Actually Forming "A Well-Regulated Militia"
Reply #51 - Sep 16th, 2019 at 2:06pm
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SkyChief wrote on Sep 13th, 2019 at 5:12pm:
It's vitally important that Civilian Militias be completely separated and fully independent from the government:

“What country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms!” - Thomas Jefferson

Militias exist to protect the Republic from ALL enemies; foreign AND domestic.
here's something Madison said about it:

Federalist No. 46: Madison
           " Let a regular army, fully equal to the resources of the country, be formed; and let it be entirely at the devotion of the federal government: stlll it would not be going too far to say that the State governments with the people on their side would be able to repel the danger. The highest number to which, according to the best computation, a standing army can be carried in any country does not exceed one hundredth part of the whole number of souls; or one twenty-fifth part of the number able to bear arms. This proportion would not yield, in the United States, an army of more than twenty-five or thirty thousand men. To these would be opposed a militia amounting to near half a million of citizens with arms in their hands, officered by men chosen from among themselves, fighting for their common liberties and united and conducted by governments possessing their affections and confidence."

           " Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation, the existence of subordinate governments, to which the people are attached and by which the militia officers are appointed, forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition, more insurmountable than any which a simple government of any form can admit of."


As you can see, he had something in mind that was more that militias totally independent of the government...

Of course he might not have imagined that our State governments would become almost entirely subordinate to the federal government, which actually spoils the whole plan of a federal system. Cry
  

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SkyChief
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Re: How About Actually Forming "A Well-Regulated Militia"
Reply #52 - Sep 16th, 2019 at 2:35pm
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Jeff wrote on Sep 16th, 2019 at 2:06pm:
As you can see, [Madison] had something in mind that was more that militias totally independent of the government...

Of course he might not have imagined that our State governments would become almost entirely subordinate to the federal government, which actually spoils the whole plan of a federal system. Cry
James Madison was a Federalist.  He advocated a powerful government with strong regulations.

Thomas Jefferson was a libertarian.  He wanted the People to have power to repel a tyrannical government.

I think this explains their different views on the Purpose of an independent Militia:

“The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.” - Thomas Jefferson
  

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Little Big Man
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Re: How About Actually Forming "A Well-Regulated Militia"
Reply #53 - Sep 16th, 2019 at 2:36pm
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Jeff wrote on Sep 16th, 2019 at 2:06pm:
here's something Madison said about it:

Federalist No. 46: Madison
           " Let a regular army, fully equal to the resources of the country, be formed; and let it be entirely at the devotion of the federal government: stlll it would not be going too far to say that the State governments with the people on their side would be able to repel the danger. The highest number to which, according to the best computation, a standing army can be carried in any country does not exceed one hundredth part of the whole number of souls; or one twenty-fifth part of the number able to bear arms. This proportion would not yield, in the United States, an army of more than twenty-five or thirty thousand men. To these would be opposed a militia amounting to near half a million of citizens with arms in their hands, officered by men chosen from among themselves, fighting for their common liberties and united and conducted by governments possessing their affections and confidence."

           " Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation, the existence of subordinate governments, to which the people are attached and by which the militia officers are appointed, forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition, more insurmountable than any which a simple government of any form can admit of."


As you can see, he had something in mind that was more that militias totally independent of the government...

Of course he might not have imagined that our State governments would become almost entirely subordinate to the federal government, which actually spoils the whole plan of a federal system. Cry


Clearly, Madison never envisioned the American people would elect and support a ruthless dictator like Lincoln.

In spite of Madison’s prediction, Lincoln was indeed able to muster a force that overcame the militias of the states.  The states could not “repel the danger.”

How did Lincoln’s armies of conscripted slaves defeat the southern states’ militias when southerners had a strong military tradition and the dedication that comes with defending one’s home? Through two ruthless innovations in warfare.

The first was the industrialization of war production and the second was total war, in which all people of the enemy are targets, not just the military.  With a steady flow of cannon and draftees combined with willingness to target women and children with the same ferocity with which they attacked soldiers, Lincoln’s handpicked generals defeated agrarian southerners trying to fight an honorable war.

After the Civil War, the powers states believed had been reserved to them were rendered entirely moot.
  

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Re: How About Actually Forming "A Well-Regulated Militia"
Reply #54 - Sep 16th, 2019 at 3:41pm
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SkyChief wrote on Sep 16th, 2019 at 2:35pm:
James Madison was a Federalist.  He advocated a powerful government with strong regulations.

But Madison wanted well-regulated State Militias capable of resisting attempts at tyranny by the federal government... He was more practical where Jefferson was more of an idealist...

Both wanted to preserve the right of people to keep and bear arms... They might have to resist tyranny by their State government, but I think the federal government is supposed t prevent that. Smiley
  

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Re: How About Actually Forming "A Well-Regulated Militia"
Reply #55 - Sep 16th, 2019 at 3:42pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Sep 16th, 2019 at 2:36pm:
Clearly, Madison never envisioned the American people would elect and support a ruthless dictator like Lincoln.


It was an indication of how much they wanted to end slavery.
  

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Re: How About Actually Forming "A Well-Regulated Militia"
Reply #56 - Sep 16th, 2019 at 3:44pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Sep 16th, 2019 at 2:36pm:
In spite of Madison’s prediction, Lincoln was indeed able to muster a force that overcame the militias of the states.  The states could not “repel the danger.”


Not of all the states working together. It was a matter of some of the state militias joining in to end slavery.

But you misconstrue the whole episode of history, Lincoln did not intend to tyrannize the people of the rebelling states, he intended to bring them back into the union as free states!
  

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Re: How About Actually Forming "A Well-Regulated Militia"
Reply #57 - Sep 16th, 2019 at 3:46pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Sep 16th, 2019 at 2:36pm:
After the Civil War, the powers states believed had been reserved to them were rendered entirely moot.
Did SCOTUS say that?

Andrew Johnson was quite a "progressive"... do you suppose he was behind what you claimed happened?
  

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SkyChief
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Re: How About Actually Forming "A Well-Regulated Militia"
Reply #58 - Sep 16th, 2019 at 3:52pm
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Jeff wrote on Sep 16th, 2019 at 3:41pm:
But Madison wanted well-regulated State Militias capable of resisting attempts at tyranny by the federal government... He was more practical where Jefferson was more of an idealist...
Even Madison understood that the militia would be self-regulated.

"To these would be opposed a militia amounting to near half a million of citizens with arms in their hands, officered by men chosen from among themselves, fighting for their common liberties ...."

Here, Madison is saying that Militia officers would NOT be commissioned by the government.  Militia officers would NOT be West Point graduates.  Militia officers would be civilians. 

Madison also plainly states that the People's Militia would be opposed to the "standing Army".
  

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Re: How About Actually Forming "A Well-Regulated Militia"
Reply #59 - Sep 16th, 2019 at 3:53pm
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Jeff wrote on Sep 16th, 2019 at 3:46pm:
Did SCOTUS say that?


No, but SCOTUS has no Army of its own, so what does it matter?

Quote:
Andrew Johnson was quite a "progressive"... do you suppose he was behind what you claimed happened?


I blame Lincoln and all he people who supported him.


  

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