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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) How About Actually Forming "A Well-Regulated Militia" (Read 2225 times)
Jeff
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Re: How About Actually Forming "A Well-Regulated Militia"
Reply #70 - Sep 17th, 2019 at 2:29pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Sep 17th, 2019 at 9:24am:
You say that justified burning their wives and children out of their homes and confiscating their crops to starve them?

Wars are won by defeating the enemy's armies, and eliminating the enemy army's means of carrying on war is an effective way to beat that army.
  

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Re: How About Actually Forming "A Well-Regulated Militia"
Reply #71 - Sep 20th, 2019 at 9:32am
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Little Big Man wrote on Sep 16th, 2019 at 5:54pm:
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It was the framers who enshrined slavery in the constitution, not libertarians.


Jeff wrote on Sep 16th, 2019 at 6:08pm:
Tell the truth.

It was slavers who insisted that slavery be mentioned in the Constitution.


Right, by definition.

The slavers were the framers and the framer were slavers.  By that second part, I mean that even the framers who did non personally own slaves were willing to enshrine slavery in the constitution in order to achieve the stronger central government they sought.

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The libertarians of the day thought the Constitution should explicitly abolish and ban slavery. Smiley


Right, again by definition.

But those libertarians were not the framers.  Or if I'm wrong about that, please quote me from a libertarian framer who wanted the new constitution to abolish and ban slavery.

Or is Slavemaster Madison the only framer you feel comfortable quoting?


  

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Re: How About Actually Forming "A Well-Regulated Militia"
Reply #72 - Sep 23rd, 2019 at 5:37pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Sep 20th, 2019 at 9:32am:
Little Big Man wrote on Sep 16th, 2019 at 5:54pm:


Right, by definition.

The slavers were the framers and the framer were slavers.  By that second part, I mean that even the framers who did non personally own slaves were willing to enshrine slavery in the constitution in order to achieve the stronger central government they sought.
But of course slavery was also opposed by many people that were involved with the creation of America... You knew that, right?

Had the slavers had their way, slavery would have been "enshrined" in the Constitution, and no State would have been permitted to ban slavery.

What ended up in the Constitution was a compromise between the slavers and the anti-slavers, and the actual important consideration was not a strong central government, but simply having enough united States to (hopefully) ensure the survival of America.
  

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Re: How About Actually Forming "A Well-Regulated Militia"
Reply #73 - Sep 24th, 2019 at 10:06am
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Jeff wrote on Sep 23rd, 2019 at 5:37pm:
But of course slavery was also opposed by many people that were involved with the creation of America... You knew that, right?


Sure.  Many.  Not most.


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Had the slavers had their way, slavery would have been "enshrined" in the Constitution, and no State would have been permitted to ban slavery.


I don't know that this is true.  You have some evidence?  I'm not sure why North Carolina would be hot to have slavery legalized in New Hampshire.  Ok, bad example since New Hampshire was a slave state.  But why would Georgia care that Massachesetts did not allow slavery?  Ok, another bad example, but you see what I mean?

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What ended up in the Constitution was a compromise between the slavers and the anti-slavers, and the actual important consideration was not a strong central government, but simply having enough united States to (hopefully) ensure the survival of America.


So it was not argued that the problem with the articles of the Confederation was that the central government was too week, particularly because it did not have enough power to tax?

I could have sworn that every historian except Jeff has stated that those were the problems.

Evidence, please?

  

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Re: How About Actually Forming "A Well-Regulated Militia"
Reply #74 - Sep 24th, 2019 at 1:43pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Sep 24th, 2019 at 10:06am:
Sure.  Many.  Not most.
I'll say I was wrong to say "many". I should have said most.
  

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Re: How About Actually Forming "A Well-Regulated Militia"
Reply #75 - Sep 24th, 2019 at 1:49pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Sep 24th, 2019 at 10:06am:
I don't know that this is true.  You have some evidence?  I'm not sure why North Carolina would be hot to have slavery legalized in New Hampshire.  Ok, bad example since New Hampshire was a slave state.  But why would Georgia care that Massachesetts did not allow slavery?  Ok, another bad example, but you see what I mean?
The slavers would have liked to have it "enshrined" in the Constitution so that States couldn't ban it, and there was agitation in many Northern States to ban it. Why would the slavers care? They might want to move to a different State and start up a business using their slaves as labor. They would have a larger market to sell their slaves if they were breeding them for sale. No claim could be made that a slave became free when the slave was on free ground. It would have made them feel better about being slavers if the entire nation was slave. Their slaves wouldn't get any ideas about escaping to a free State. They could more easily maintain the myth that black people were only fit to be slaves if there were no successful free blacks to prove them wrong.

  

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Re: How About Actually Forming "A Well-Regulated Militia"
Reply #76 - Sep 24th, 2019 at 1:56pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Sep 24th, 2019 at 10:06am:
So it was not argued that the problem with the articles of the Confederation was that the central government was too week, particularly because it did not have enough power to tax?


Yes, the primary argument against the Articles of Confederation was that they did not grant any power to tax, and that the lack of that power made it impossible for the federal government to be of any use at all.

The current complaints of libertarians and others who value individual liberty is against a federal government with an unlimited power to tax and an unlimited power to legislate... That does not describe the government created by the Constitution.
  

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Re: How About Actually Forming "A Well-Regulated Militia"
Reply #77 - Sep 24th, 2019 at 4:51pm
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Jeff wrote on Sep 24th, 2019 at 1:43pm:
I'll say I was wrong to say "many". I should have said most.


You don’t need any evidence to say that?
  

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Re: How About Actually Forming "A Well-Regulated Militia"
Reply #78 - Sep 24th, 2019 at 4:59pm
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Jeff wrote on Sep 24th, 2019 at 1:49pm:
The slavers would have liked to have it "enshrined" in the Constitution so that States couldn't ban it, and there was agitation in many Northern States to ban it. Why would the slavers care? They might want to move to a different State and start up a business using their slaves as labor. They would have a larger market to sell their slaves if they were breeding them for sale. No claim could be made that a slave became free when the slave was on free ground. It would have made them feel better about being slavers if the entire nation was slave. Their slaves wouldn't get any ideas about escaping to a free State. They could more easily maintain the myth that black people were only fit to be slaves if there were no successful free blacks to prove them wrong.



When you think about it all that makes perfect sense if you accept that some human beings can rightfully be property and other human beings can rightfully own them.  The majority of founders clearly accepted that but also believed in “states’ rights” so they did not force other states to  accept slavery.

Mighty white of them. . . .
  

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Re: How About Actually Forming "A Well-Regulated Militia"
Reply #79 - Sep 24th, 2019 at 5:02pm
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Jeff wrote on Sep 24th, 2019 at 1:56pm:
Yes, the primary argument against the Articles of Confederation was that they did not grant any power to tax, and that the lack of that power made it impossible for the federal government to be of any use at all.


Yeah, they’re so useful now.

Quote:
The current complaints of libertarians and others who value individual liberty is against a federal government with an unlimited power to tax and an unlimited power to legislate... That does not describe the government created by the Constitution.


As you’ve repeatedly said, there is no limit on the amount or the portion of a persons wealth the federal government may take by force. You’ve said that this is good.


  

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