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Little Biq Man
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Unborn Babies: The Littlest Libertarians or Unwanted Body Invaders?
Sep 14th, 2019 at 11:16am
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I am able to moderate a debate about this point so long as we agree that science is not ignored.

Science tells us that the unborn child is a separate human from either the mother or father.  It is a well-established principle in law that if the perpetrator of a crime is known to have had a specific set of DNA, the state has no grounds to claim that a defendant with a different set of DNA could still be that same person.

That's the one ground rule of this debate:  Science is real so the baby is not "part of the mother."

GO.
  
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SkyChief
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Re: Unborn Babies: The Littlest Libertarians or Unwanted Body Invaders?
Reply #1 - Sep 14th, 2019 at 11:49am
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The answer to this conundrum lies in the umbilical cord. 

If it belongs to the mother, then it is part of her "body" and she could opt to remove it surgically. 

Of course severing/removing the umbilical cord is certain death for the fetus.  The fetus will die within minutes and be rejected by the mother's body (miscarriage).

However, if the umbilical DOES NOT belong to the mother, then it belongs to the fetus, and surgically severing it would be tantamount to murder of the fetus.

So which is it?        Who is the owner of that umbilical cord?

As it turns out, the fetus is.   The umbilical cord is 100% made up of fetal DNA.  Umbilical cords are harvested for 'stem' cells.

So a viable fetus IS the littlest libertarian.  He/she has natural rights of life,liberty, and property.

Any attempt to kill a viable fetus is Murder 1.   

The gray area is what if the fetus is not yet viable?  Is killing a non-viable fetus murder?

The Law says NO - it is legal to terminate/kill the (non-viable) fetus.   

Right-To-Lifers say Yes, terminating a non-viable fetus is still murder, and without redemption from Christ, punishable by eternal damnation in Hell.  Not fun.   Lips Sealed
  

Governments will always devise ways to deprive an honest man of his money or property, and claim that it's legal.
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The Opposition
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Re: Unborn Babies: The Littlest Libertarians or Unwanted Body Invaders?
Reply #2 - Sep 14th, 2019 at 11:56am
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If a landlord can evict a tenant regardless of whether it will cause death, then so can a pregnant female.

However, I would argue that if the sex was consensual and unprotected, both the mother and the father owe damages to the unborn baby. If they wantonly cause it to be created in a situation where it's going to be evicted, that's the same as poofing someone into existence over a volcano where he will fall into it. I don't think it's technically aggression, since you're not pushing him into the volcano, but it's certainly negligent.

So basically... I think the baby can sue. Ideally it would collect enough in damages to have itself removed and safely implanted in someone else. It's not any more unlikely than getting justice in anarchy where private security companies rule the roost. The biggest one especially is going to just kill people, and yes you technically have the right to recourse. For libertarians, technically is enough, so there you go. Let the baby sue. If the parents can't pay the damages, they can't abort it.

SkyChief wrote on Sep 14th, 2019 at 11:49am:
The answer to this conundrum lies in the umbilical cord. 

If it belongs to the mother, then it is part of her "body" and she could opt to remove it surgically.


Her uterus is part of her body, though.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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SkyChief
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Re: Unborn Babies: The Littlest Libertarians or Unwanted Body Invaders?
Reply #3 - Sep 14th, 2019 at 12:06pm
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The Opposition wrote on Sep 14th, 2019 at 11:56am:
Her uterus is part of her body, though.
So are her kidneys.  So what?
  

Governments will always devise ways to deprive an honest man of his money or property, and claim that it's legal.
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The Opposition
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Re: Unborn Babies: The Littlest Libertarians or Unwanted Body Invaders?
Reply #4 - Sep 14th, 2019 at 12:09pm
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SkyChief wrote on Sep 14th, 2019 at 12:06pm:
So are her kidneys.  So what?


So what would you say if she had the whole uterus removed while there was somebody in it?
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: Unborn Babies: The Littlest Libertarians or Unwanted Body Invaders?
Reply #5 - Sep 14th, 2019 at 12:34pm
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"Body invaders"?
  

"Free hate speech"
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Jeff
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Re: Unborn Babies: The Littlest Libertarians or Unwanted Body Invaders?
Reply #6 - Sep 14th, 2019 at 12:35pm
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SkyChief wrote on Sep 14th, 2019 at 11:49am:
The answer to this conundrum lies in the umbilical cord. 

I think it's in the miraculous placenta, which prevents the mothers immune system from killing the developing child as if it was a "body invader".
  

"Free hate speech"
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SkyChief
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Re: Unborn Babies: The Littlest Libertarians or Unwanted Body Invaders?
Reply #7 - Sep 14th, 2019 at 12:55pm
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The Opposition wrote on Sep 14th, 2019 at 12:09pm:
So what would you say if she had the whole uterus removed while there was somebody in it?

It depends. . . is the fetus viable?
  

Governments will always devise ways to deprive an honest man of his money or property, and claim that it's legal.
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kaz
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Re: Unborn Babies: The Littlest Libertarians or Unwanted Body Invaders?
Reply #8 - Dec 1st, 2019 at 1:24pm
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Little Biq Man wrote on Sep 14th, 2019 at 11:16am:
I am able to moderate a debate about this point so long as we agree that science is not ignored.

Science tells us that the unborn child is a separate human from either the mother or father.  It is a well-established principle in law that if the perpetrator of a crime is known to have had a specific set of DNA, the state has no grounds to claim that a defendant with a different set of DNA could still be that same person.

That's the one ground rule of this debate:  Science is real so the baby is not "part of the mother."

GO.


It has nothing to do with that.  Government ordering a woman to carry a baby to term in her body is not a legitimate use of government force. 

Both sides should join and fight the need for abortions rather than over who to point the guns at, it would be so much more effective
  

Contest winner:  I predicted Kaz' meltdown
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The Opposition
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Re: Unborn Babies: The Littlest Libertarians or Unwanted Body Invaders?
Reply #9 - Dec 1st, 2019 at 1:46pm
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I suggested making baby-selling the same as any other contract and providing enforcement, but it was shat on, as usual.

There's a lot of demand for newborns, but these contracts don't always get made because the mother can take the money and run; there is no enforcement. The government would rule that it's the mother's baby when she changes her mind.

http://www.libertariansforum.com/cgi-bin/freedom/YaBB.pl?num=1574039767
The Opposition wrote on Nov 17th, 2019 at 8:16pm:
Every abortion represents a market failure since there is absolutely massively high demand for that newborn baby.

Newborn babies may be in great demand, but they're difficult to buy because the buyers know the mother-to-be is immensely likely to renege on the deal once her hormones start pouring forth, and they've got no recourse. Their money is gone. So the buyers know it's a huge gamble.

https://www.nytimes.com/1976/04/25/archives/price-for-babies-rising-in-wider-bla...

There's a huge black market! A baby is selling for as much as $50k, if its got the right attributes.

So have the government streamline the process of selling babies. Let the mother make a contract. Let her get paid. And of course, enforce those contracts. Once she poops it out, it belongs to the buyer no matter what her hormones say.

Look at the article! The kind of baby in demand is the exact kind being aborted! That's a goddamn market failure!

No one will abort a baby if they wake up with $10,000 on their plate not to do so.

That's probably around what a newborn baby is actually worth, so let it be worth that.

Bring baby-selling out of the shade and uncertainty of the black market and into the light.

The whole bloody (lol) problem will just go away forever. The only abortions will go to babies that would never sell, such as those with defects so fatal they cannot possibly survive outside the womb.

Sonogram. Genetic health check. Contract. Done.

Boosh.

No more abortions.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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