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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Small Groups of People (Read 1425 times)
Jeff
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Small Groups of People
Sep 25th, 2019 at 5:28pm
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I've been thinking Chief, about your repeated claim that a free society governed under libertarian ideals can only exist on a small scale.

I think you have it exactly wrong, it's communal societies that can only exist in small groups. Anything larger than an extended family/tribal unit, the communal spirit starts to go away. I'll spare you the long winded explanation, as I'm sure you can understand why.

What seems clear to me is that the only way you can have a large scale civilization/society is to have individual liberty, and rights, and the equal protection of a rule of law, in other words, a free society under libertarian precepts and policies.

Edit: Free trade helps bring people together, so it's another necessity for a large society. (Edit: Sorry, equal protection of the law requires free trade.)

I think those are our options, a free world, or warring nations.
  

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SkyChief
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Re: Small Groups of People
Reply #1 - Sep 25th, 2019 at 5:54pm
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Jeff wrote on Sep 25th, 2019 at 5:28pm:
I've been thinking Chief, about your repeated claim that a free society governed under libertarian ideals can only exist on a small scale.

I think you have it exactly wrong. . .

Here's why I don't have it wrong:

Think of the absolutely smallest Libertarian society possible on the planet. . .

A libertarian family/household.

We have one and it's wonderful.  Our home is Libertarian haven.  Smiley

It's risky when we have guests though, because not all of our guests are libertarian.

As more people come in, the likelihood for subversion goes up.

Cruise ships are an ideal libertarian society.   Everyone aboard the ship is there for one common purpose - to have fun and not bother anybody.  They don't need to worry about Taxes or Wars or Redistribution.

The passengers who bought steerage berths are happy to be there and hold no grudges or contempt for the people booked in First-Class staterooms. 

The cruise ship passengers don't need to worry about subversives who might try to commandeer the vessel and turn it into a socialist nightmare.   

They all wish their libertarian cruise would never end.
  

Governments will always devise ways to deprive an honest man of his money or property, and claim that it's legal.
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Jeff
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Re: Small Groups of People
Reply #2 - Sep 25th, 2019 at 5:56pm
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SkyChief wrote on Sep 25th, 2019 at 5:54pm:
They all wish their libertarian cruise would never end.
Sometimes Chief, you're as annoying as the jerkwad. Cry
  

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SkyChief
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Re: Small Groups of People
Reply #3 - Sep 25th, 2019 at 6:02pm
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Jeff wrote on Sep 25th, 2019 at 5:56pm:
Sometimes Chief, you're as annoying as the jerkwad. Cry
Thanks.

I prefer a seastead to a cruise ship.  They don't call it "cabin fever" for nothing.  Cabins on cruise ships are really small and some folks can get claustrophobic.  Claustrophobic people can panic.   

On a seastead, each unit is privately owned, can be expanded if needed, and there is lots of room to walk around without bumping into someone.  The larger seasteads will have bike paths.
  

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Jeff
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Re: Small Groups of People
Reply #4 - Sep 25th, 2019 at 6:15pm
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SkyChief wrote on Sep 25th, 2019 at 6:02pm:
Thanks.

I prefer a seastead to a cruise ship.  They don't call it "cabin fever" for nothing.  Cabins on cruise ships are really small and some folks can get claustrophobic.  Claustrophobic people can panic.   

On a seastead, each unit is privately owned, can be expanded if needed, and there is lots of room to walk around without bumping into someone.  The larger seasteads will have bike paths.
Yeah, yeah, dream on. You and your rich buddies haven't made any progress with this idea since the 1950s.

Do you plan to live communally? It appears that you want to create a tribe... Edit: A condominium association perhaps?
  

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SkyChief
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Re: Small Groups of People
Reply #5 - Sep 25th, 2019 at 6:41pm
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Jeff wrote on Sep 25th, 2019 at 6:15pm:
Yeah, yeah, dream on. You and your rich buddies haven't made any progress with this idea since the 1950s.

Do you plan to live communally? It appears that you want to create a tribe... Edit: A condominium association perhaps?
It will be more of a colony than a 'commune'. 

Each person works for him/herself - not for the collective.  There is no communal property.

Each colonist must agree to live as libertarian.  That's made very clear in the purchase agreement.

The "common" areas (walkways, paths, roads, parks) are owned and maintained by the Seastead development company.

There is no HOA, no jail, or prison - instead there will be a CoE (Council of Elders) - a body of volunteers who will assist in arbitration of civil grievance matters.

The CoE will decide if someone is to be banished from the Seastead.
  

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Jeff
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Re: Small Groups of People
Reply #6 - Sep 25th, 2019 at 7:01pm
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SkyChief wrote on Sep 25th, 2019 at 6:41pm:
Each colonist must agree to live as libertarian.  That's made very clear in the purchase agreement.

Everyone has agreed in writing that they won't hit the other kids or take their toys?

And everybody will have machine guns to enforce those rules for themselves?

Probably that's why the idea is so unpopular, so clearly foolish that no one will invest in it.

If anybody would want to invest in creating a seastead, what sort of legal agreement would that involve? Formation of a corporation? Or a condominium association? Or maybe something like a HOA? Or a tribal sort of organization?
  

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Jeff
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Re: Small Groups of People
Reply #7 - Sep 25th, 2019 at 7:05pm
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SkyChief wrote on Sep 25th, 2019 at 6:41pm:
The "common" areas (walkways, paths, roads, parks) are owned and maintained by the Seastead development company.

Sorry, I see it will be owned by a corporation, and they will have things for sale and rules about how everything they own can be used.

Are there any precedents for such a community?

Did Henry Ford create company communities anywhere? I know a lot of coal mining corporations did...

Edit: I guess docking facilities will be "common" areas, owned by the corporation too?
  

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Little Biq Man
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Re: Small Groups of People
Reply #8 - Sep 25th, 2019 at 7:33pm
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Jeff wrote on Sep 25th, 2019 at 5:28pm:
What seems clear to me is that the only way you can have a large scale civilization/society is to have individual liberty, and rights, and the equal protection of a rule of law,


How would that rule of law be paid for?

Your answer has consistently been WTTE of:  "Oh, the government can just take the money from people." 

In that case individual liberty, and rights, and the equal protection of a rule of law is out the window.  Unless you can provide counter-examples to every known government in the world.

Real examples, not hypothetical "if only" examples.  Examples in which government both taxed by force and provided equal protection under the law.

Quote:
in other words, a free society under libertarian precepts and policies.


You're a libertarian?

Quote:
Edit: Free trade helps bring people together, so it's another necessity for a large society. (Edit: Sorry, equal protection of the law requires free trade.)


Would that include equal protection from poverty? From ignorance (defined as lack of basic education)?

Hypthetical question:

In a community with a community-based public education, with the following characteristics:

An exactly equal mix of people who speak primarily English and immigrants who speak primarily the language of their former nations - the same language, let's say a mythical country called "Egalatia" in which inhabitants speak "Egalatian."

Many of the inhabitants left Egalatia because that nation's attempts to make everything equal bankrupted the nation.  The Egalatians, having thrived in the United States immediately begin to criticize the U.S. for not being enough like Egalatia.

In this community, each family pays exactly the same amount in school taxes as all others.  The Egalitarian immigrants do like that.  What they don't like is that ninety-nine percent of the English speakers are citizens while only ninety-five percent of the Egalitarian speakers.

Every election year, the Egalitarian speakers gather the required signatures to force a vote on whether the school system should be bi-lingual (English/Egalitarian) or English only.  Every election year, the measure is voted down along linguistic lines, by exactly the difference between English-speaking citizens and Egalitarian speaking citizens.

Thus the Egalitarians are forced to pay for a school system that refuses to teach their children in their language.  Because of this, they must send their children to private school while still paying for the education of the English speaking children.

I open this question to others, but I hope Jeff will give it a shot:

Does that community provide equal protection of the law? 
  
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SkyChief
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Re: Small Groups of People
Reply #9 - Sep 25th, 2019 at 7:54pm
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Jeff wrote on Sep 25th, 2019 at 7:01pm:
Everyone has agreed in writing that they won't hit the other kids or take their toys?
Basically, yes - there is a General Code of Conduct.  It will be made available on the Seastead Event web page.

Jeff wrote on Sep 25th, 2019 at 7:01pm:
And everybody will have machine guns to enforce those rules for themselves?
The only "gun control" tolerated on the Seastead is hitting what you aim at! 

If you want a machine gun, you can have one. If you don't want to have any guns at all, you are free to not have any.  On Mondays and Thursdays, there will be a remote-controlled Target Drone Boat for colonists to shoot at.  They will go through a lot of ammo really fast, so the Guns&Ammo shop owner will do a lot of business!

Jeff wrote on Sep 25th, 2019 at 7:01pm:
If anybody would want to invest in creating a seastead, what sort of legal agreement would that involve? Formation of a corporation? Or a condominium association? Or maybe something like a HOA? Or a tribal sort of organization?
Good questions.  I'm no lawyer, so I can't really say.   It would NOT be structured like an HOA, because the CoE are volunteers, and not elected (as an HOA Board of Directors)

Tribal? yes, that might describe it better.  But a tribe has a Chief.  There is no Chief on the Seastead.

. . .only the Council of Elders.  A Seastead organization might be unique unto itself.
  

Governments will always devise ways to deprive an honest man of his money or property, and claim that it's legal.
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