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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Small Groups of People (Read 1423 times)
Jeff
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Re: Small Groups of People
Reply #20 - Sep 26th, 2019 at 7:41am
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Nobody wants to talk about my original premise, that a large civilized society can only exist under a libertarian system of limited government enforcing equal rights under law, and that communal style societies are, of necessity, limited to nothing larger than small tribes?
  

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SkyChief
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Re: Small Groups of People
Reply #21 - Sep 26th, 2019 at 10:21am
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Jeff wrote on Sep 26th, 2019 at 7:37am:
I'm a night owl, I like to shoot my .50 BMG at 4:00am, and I have my own target drones.

I hope you have good soundproofing in your unit! Smiley

I would solve that problem libertarian-style.

I would round up some of the neighbors who are bothered with your 4:00 AM shooting, we'd go to your home module as a group, express our displeasure and would simply ask you to shoot your .50 cal BMG during hours when people are awake.

A reasonable person would say " Sure - no problem."  and that would be the end of it.

Would you make a scene, Jeff?     Would you be a real drama queen?
  

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The Opposition
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Re: Small Groups of People
Reply #22 - Sep 26th, 2019 at 10:29am
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Jeff wrote on Sep 26th, 2019 at 7:41am:
Nobody wants to talk about my original premise, that a large civilized society can only exist under a libertarian system of limited government enforcing equal rights under law, and that communal style societies are, of necessity, limited to nothing larger than small tribes?


Don't ask me. I think overpopulation is the root of destruction in all societies.

I even think this about my homeworld. Higher population = violence. Violence leads to lower population. (At least, for us it does; we can't pop 'em out ten at a time like you do.) Lower population leads to peace.

Surak just happened to come around at exactly the right time when we'd killed ourselves down to a reasonable population. If he'd said pets were the root of all evil instead of emotions, we'd have banned pets instead and still be essentially worshiping him.

I have come to think of policies as being interchangeable except insofar as they create or destroy sustainability, and unfortunately you %$#&s don't live long enough to see anything but the immediate result, so it's not like you can catch on.

SkyChief wrote on Sep 26th, 2019 at 10:21am:
i would solve that problem libertarian-style.

I would round up some of the neighbors who are bothered with your 4:00 AM shooting, we'd go to your home module as a group, express our displeasure and would simply ask you to shoot your .50 cal BMG during hours when people are awake.

A reasonable person would say " Sure - no problem."  and that would be the end of it.

Would you make a scene, Jeff?     Would you be a real drama queen?


If he does, he has to sleep sometime, which is not 4AM, so the rest of you can just make noise at that other time.

This is actually a great example of how destructive elements can be dealt with on a small scale but not on a large scale, because dealing with them involves individual attention and there just aren't enough tweezers for the job when your back is covered in hair and you can't reach.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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SkyChief
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Re: Small Groups of People
Reply #23 - Sep 26th, 2019 at 11:26am
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The Opposition wrote on Sep 26th, 2019 at 10:29am:
Jeff wrote on Sep 26th, 2019 at 7:37am:
I'm a night owl, I like to shoot my .50 BMG at 4:00am, and I have my own target drones.

I hope you have good soundproofing in your unit! Smiley


If he does, he has to sleep sometime, which is not 4AM, so the rest of you can just make noise at that other time.

This is actually a great example of how destructive elements can be dealt with on a small scale but not on a large scale, because dealing with them involves individual attention and there just aren't enough tweezers for the job when your back is covered in hair and you can't reach.

I don't question that this would be effective, but that's a rather vindictive approach, IMO.

My libertarian (Non Aggression Principle) approach is better because there are no hard feelings.

If Jeff is reasonable, he will comply with our wishes, and shoot his BMG at a time when it's not bothersome to others. 

By complying, he might even gain a little respect from his neighbors.

Win/Win        Smiley
  

Governments will always devise ways to deprive an honest man of his money or property, and claim that it's legal.
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Jeff
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Re: Small Groups of People
Reply #24 - Sep 26th, 2019 at 2:43pm
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SkyChief wrote on Sep 26th, 2019 at 10:21am:
I would solve that problem libertarian-style.

I would round up some of the neighbors who are bothered with your 4:00 AM shooting, we'd go to your home module as a group, express our displeasure and would simply ask you to shoot your .50 cal BMG during hours when people are awake.

A reasonable person would say " Sure - no problem."  and that would be the end of it.

Would you make a scene, Jeff?     Would you be a real drama queen?
Am I violating any rules that I agreed to? Is there going to be a general rule against creating nuisances? Who will enforce it?

If you promise people a "libertarian paradise", many of them will expect to be free to do whatever they want to, whenever they want to...

If you're going to tell them they can have any guns they want, but can only shoot them when the rules say guns may be discharged, it sounds not so "libertarian".

What if a group of residents decide that shooting any guns at any time is annoying?

Besides, your barking dog annoys me... It barks constantly whenever you are gone...
  

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Jeff
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Re: Small Groups of People
Reply #25 - Sep 26th, 2019 at 2:49pm
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SkyChief wrote on Sep 26th, 2019 at 11:26am:
My libertarian (Non Aggression Principle) approach is better because there are no hard feelings.

Just make sure all the people you allow in are reasonable and don't have any damn barking dogs!

And, what about the guy in unit #14, who leaves his garbage outside and never takes it to the dump area? I've asked him nicely a bunch of times, and he still does it... it's a health and safety issue, right? Will anybody enforce the rules if some residents turn out to be less that conscientious about health and safety? What if he tells the Board of Elders to piss off, mind their own business, like he did me?
  

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SkyChief
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Re: Small Groups of People
Reply #26 - Sep 26th, 2019 at 3:08pm
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Jeff wrote on Sep 26th, 2019 at 2:43pm:
Am I violating any rules that I agreed to? Is there going to be a general rule against creating nuisances? Who will enforce it?
Nope.   You aren't violating any rules.   It's a libertarian society.

By blasting your BMG at 4:00AM, you ARE being a real prick.

If your neighbors kindly ask you to wait a few hours to do this, and you refuse, then they can pool their resources and make your life on the Seastead a living hell.  They would be perfectly justified in doing so.   

You will eventually realize that you are a misfit, and will probably take the next shuttle boat to the mainland and stay there.

Jeff wrote on Sep 26th, 2019 at 2:43pm:
If you promise people a "libertarian paradise", many of them will expect to be free to do whatever they want to, whenever they want to...

If you're going to tell them they can have any guns they want, but can only shoot them when the rules say guns may be discharged, it sounds not so "libertarian".
People who can afford a seastead home module are going to be very smart people.  It's highly unlikely that seasteaders will be a bunch of bumpkins from western Pennsylvania.

Jeff wrote on Sep 26th, 2019 at 2:43pm:
Besides, your barking dog annoys me... It barks constantly whenever you are gone...
Then tell me.   I will put a shock collar on the dog.    Those things typically cure a barking dog in 20 minutes.

See how easy it is to neighborly?
  

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Jeff
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Re: Small Groups of People
Reply #27 - Sep 26th, 2019 at 4:50pm
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SkyChief wrote on Sep 26th, 2019 at 3:08pm:
Nope.   You aren't violating any rules.   It's a libertarian society.

By blasting your BMG at 4:00AM, you ARE being a real prick.

If your neighbors kindly ask you to wait a few hours to do this, and you refuse, then they can pool their resources and make your life on the Seastead a living hell.  They would be perfectly justified in doing so.   
Vigilante Justice then. I see... Nuisances will be punished by banishment. Is that a new idea libertarians just came up with?

Do you imagine you will have only one prick?

Who gets to define what constitutes a prick?



Nevermind, you told me that, the Vigilantes.

But, if the Vigilantes force me off, I still own my seastead property, right? Or will they steal it?


  

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Jeff
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Re: Small Groups of People
Reply #28 - Sep 26th, 2019 at 5:10pm
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Thinking about it leads me to believe that a seastead would best be organized as a commune. For the best chance of success that is.
  

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The Opposition
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Re: Small Groups of People
Reply #29 - Sep 26th, 2019 at 9:36pm
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SkyChief wrote on Sep 26th, 2019 at 11:26am:
I don't question that this would be effective, but that's a rather vindictive approach, IMO.

My libertarian (Non Aggression Principle) approach is better because there are no hard feelings.


If you'd be violating the NAP by making noise, so would he, right?

Shit. I forgot... we can't assume principles apply equally to everyone. Libertarianism and all.

SkyChief wrote on Sep 26th, 2019 at 11:26am:
If Jeff is reasonable, he will comply with our wishes, and shoot his BMG at a time when it's not bothersome to others. 

By complying, he might even gain a little respect from his neighbors.

Win/Win        Smiley


Actually among Humans, complying with anything for any reason can only lose you respect.

I have done nothing but comply with the NAP since I got here and I have the least respect of anyone on the forum.

Opposition: "Can I do this thing...?"
Libertarians: "No! I have sooooooo many rights, here, I just found one that would be violating! Hahaha go kill yourself loser."
Opposition: "Alright. I won't do that thing, then."
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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