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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) What Would Rothbard Do? (Read 1097 times)
Jeff
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Re: What Would Rothbard Do?
Reply #10 - Sep 26th, 2019 at 3:13pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Sep 26th, 2019 at 3:10pm:
Legalize.


Exactly! Make it just as legal to grow and sell as sweet corn. Smiley
  

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The Opposition
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Re: What Would Rothbard Do?
Reply #11 - Sep 26th, 2019 at 9:30pm
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ahhell wrote on Sep 26th, 2019 at 12:01pm:
Your timeline on and causation in Colorado is way off. 


Ahhell's usual answer: "You're wrong, therefore, you're wrong. That scenario can't happen because the free market is perfect. I'm not answering such a stupid question."

Actually to tell you the truth, I've never had an answer from a libertarian that was otherwise.

SkyChief wrote on Sep 26th, 2019 at 11:07am:
You must vote to decriminalize pot.

Rothbard absolutely would.

You see, nobody had the right to make pot illegal in the first place!

That's right.

Does a person (or a group of people) have a right to tell you that carrots are "illegal"?  How about rhubarb?  Or coriander?

Of course not. That would be absurd.   It is equally absurd to tell a man he cannot do whatever he wants to marijuana (another natural organic plant).

Vote YES on pot!


Thank you. That's a more honest answer than I'm used to.

You know, HOAs do have the right to tell people they can't use pot.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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SkyChief
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Re: What Would Rothbard Do?
Reply #12 - Sep 26th, 2019 at 11:04pm
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The Opposition wrote on Sep 26th, 2019 at 9:30pm:
Thank you. That's a more honest answer than I'm used to. . .

You know, HOAs do have the right to tell people they can't use pot.
They sure do.  HOAs have the right to tell people they can't use toilet paper. . .  or rubber bands. . . or anything they want.

That's why HOAs suck so hard.

It's tyranny and autocracy at the smallest possible level.

No wonder so many people hate them. 
  

Governments will always devise ways to deprive an honest man of his money or property, and claim that it's legal.
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The Opposition
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Re: What Would Rothbard Do?
Reply #13 - Sep 27th, 2019 at 10:24am
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SkyChief wrote on Sep 26th, 2019 at 11:04pm:
They sure do.  HOAs have the right to tell people they can't use toilet paper. . .  or rubber bands. . . or anything they want.

That's why HOAs suck so hard.

It's tyranny and autocracy at the smallest possible level.

No wonder so many people hate them. 


Since HOAs are legitimate and government is illegitimate, why do you think America was founded as a government and not an HOA? Do you think the founders wanted their constitution and the rules therein to be illegitimate?
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Little Big Man
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Re: What Would Rothbard Do?
Reply #14 - Sep 27th, 2019 at 11:01am
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The Opposition wrote on Sep 27th, 2019 at 10:24am:
Since HOAs are legitimate and government is illegitimate, why do you think America was founded as a government and not an HOA? Do you think the founders wanted their constitution and the rules therein to be illegitimate?


That is a very good question.

Chief is right that HOA's suck sugar coated donkey dicks.  But everyone agrees to them when they buy homes in areas with HOA's, there are real options besides living in an area with an HOA and one can reasonably move out of an area with an HOA once one finds out how hard they suck.

so they are absolutely legitimate, as opposed to government which is imposed on everyone and impossible to escape.

So why do they suck?  I would argue that they suck because they are quasi-government.  In other words, the same evil side of human nature that makes people want to form governments is behind the desire to form HOA's.   So HOA's take on many of the worst traits of government and they are right there in your own neighborhood.  I rarely see law enforcement in my neighborhood (in spite of being forced to pay for their "protection), but I often see the board members of my HOA driving slowly through looking at yards and houses with a proprietary air. 

Still, once a month our HOA meetings provide comedy, so there's that.
  

Snarky no more!
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SkyChief
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Re: What Would Rothbard Do?
Reply #15 - Sep 27th, 2019 at 11:01am
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The Opposition wrote on Sep 27th, 2019 at 10:24am:
Since HOAs are legitimate and government is illegitimate. . .
I don't agree with this.

An HOA is a government.  Its a tiny republic.  The elected Board members represent the homeowners.

In our HOA meetings, before the call to order,  we have 30 minutes "open forum" where any HOA member is invited to step up to the mic and voice his/her concerns.

There's much corruption in our HOA - usually senior Board members giving themselves special perks - esp. with parking and holiday decorations.
  

Governments will always devise ways to deprive an honest man of his money or property, and claim that it's legal.
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Re: What Would Rothbard Do?
Reply #16 - Sep 27th, 2019 at 12:12pm
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The Opposition wrote on Sep 26th, 2019 at 9:30pm:
Ahhell's usual answer: "You're wrong, therefore, you're wrong. That scenario can't happen because the free market is perfect. I'm not answering such a stupid question."

Your usual response to me clearly answering your question and then pointing out that you are actually wrong about something based the evidence. 

If I had perfect knowledge of the future and it turned out that voting to legalize pot would create a socialist dystopia, I'd vote no.  It is an very unlikely scenario, so with out such perfect knowledge, I'd vote to legalize. 

The truth regarding CO's shift, is that yes a bunch of other CA's have moved here along with a lot of other outsiders, this has been happening for over a decade, long before pot was legal.  Its mostly City Folks that are moving mostly to the Cities of Denver and its suburbs.  City folk, vote Dem almost everywhere in the US.  Its nonsensical to think it has something to do with legal pot which is also legal in CA and was effectively decriminalized in CA before it was legalized in CO.  Your scenario is stupid and not based on reality.

The real reason so many CA's have moved to CO is the cost of living difference and the economy.  If you aren't a techie who can afford to live in the Bay Area, then CA offers you low pay and shitty places to live.  This is mostly due to their crazy left policies though.  Seriously, rent control?
  
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Jeff
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Re: What Would Rothbard Do?
Reply #17 - Sep 27th, 2019 at 1:28pm
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The Opposition wrote on Sep 27th, 2019 at 10:24am:
Since HOAs are legitimate and government is illegitimate, why do you think America was founded as a government and not an HOA? Do you think the founders wanted their constitution and the rules therein to be illegitimate?
They simply wanted a better form of government than that provided by a HOA. Specifically, they wanted to allow far more freedom than HOAs provide.
  

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The Opposition
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Re: What Would Rothbard Do?
Reply #18 - Sep 27th, 2019 at 9:05pm
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SkyChief wrote on Sep 26th, 2019 at 11:07am:
You must vote to decriminalize pot.

Rothbard absolutely would.


Well, he would, and then he'd regret it. He actually changed his mind on open borders later in his life.

https://mises.org/library/open-borders-are-assault-private-property
Quote:
Shortly before his death, Murray Rothbard published an article called “Nations by Consent: Decomposing the Nation State.” He had begun rethinking the assumption that libertarianism committed us to open borders.

He noted, for instance, the large number of ethnic Russians whom Stalin settled in Estonia. This was not done so that Baltic people could enjoy the fruits of diversity. It never is. It was done in an attempt to destroy an existing culture, and in the process to make a people more docile and less likely to cause problems for the Soviet empire.

Murray wondered: does libertarianism require me to support this, much less to celebrate it? Or might there be more to the immigration question after all?


ahhell wrote on Sep 27th, 2019 at 12:12pm:
Your usual response to me clearly answering your question and then pointing out that you are actually wrong about something based the evidence. 


You cited no evidence. I didn't either, but it's been very obvious to me - because I have seen it with my own eyeballs - that pot has at least something to do with the massive wave of Californian sewage Colorado is being crushed under.

Immediately after the legalisation, I noticed there was a bum on every street corner (this was not an issue before) and almost every one of them stinks of marijuana. I did a little intel and gave them some money and struck up conversation. My sample size is low, but most of them are from California.

ahhell wrote on Sep 27th, 2019 at 12:12pm:
If I had perfect knowledge of the future and it turned out that voting to legalize pot would create a socialist dystopia, I'd vote no.  It is an very unlikely scenario, so with out such perfect knowledge, I'd vote to legalize. 


See, this is all I was asking for. Even in this extremely unlikely scenario, I was just going to ask where the right to vote no comes from.

ahhell wrote on Sep 27th, 2019 at 12:12pm:
The truth regarding CO's shift, is that yes a bunch of other CA's have moved here along with a lot of other outsiders, this has been happening for over a decade, long before pot was legal.  Its mostly City Folks that are moving mostly to the Cities of Denver and its suburbs.  City folk, vote Dem almost everywhere in the US.  Its nonsensical to think it has something to do with legal pot which is also legal in CA and was effectively decriminalized in CA before it was legalized in CO.  Your scenario is stupid and not based on reality.


It's nonsensical to think the earth warming has anything to do with CO2 or methane. You just got libertarian'd. You know as well as I do that there is at least some anthropogenic global warming. I believe the consensus is around half a degree globally, which is small, and the big issue is whether it will become catastrophic, and no one actually knows the answer.

I never said pot is the sole reason and my initial claim is only that it's a similar situation and that pot has something to do with it.

Another similar situation is what happens when borders open: Freedom is ultimately lost to a libertarian purism that insists all rights be absolutely respected right now, no matter if it will increase rights violation later. I wanted to avoid sullying the issue with open borders.

My main question remains: In this rare and probably in practice impossible scenario, what gives you the right to vote no on pot?
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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The Opposition
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Re: What Would Rothbard Do?
Reply #19 - Sep 27th, 2019 at 9:11pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Sep 27th, 2019 at 11:01am:
That is a very good question.

Chief is right that HOA's suck sugar coated donkey dicks.  But everyone agrees to them when they buy homes in areas with HOA's, there are real options besides living in an area with an HOA and one can reasonably move out of an area with an HOA once one finds out how hard they suck.

so they are absolutely legitimate, as opposed to government which is imposed on everyone and impossible to escape.


HOAs own a portion of every property they govern. This creates legitimacy, not the practicality of escape. You can escape the US government by leaving. They allow you to leave. Where you will go and how you will live isn't their problem, though I know at least one person who escaped to Panama.

What the Founders thought they were doing was creating something legitimate and what the citizens thought they were getting was something legitimate. They didn't found it as an HOA because they didn't know they needed to, since libertarianism had yet to come around and define all governments as illegitimate.

Now I know the issue of pot isn't in the Constitution, but imagine for argument's sake that it was, and it actually said no pot at all. Now think about a libertarian being awakened half a second after the Constitution was ratified and starting to toke immediately. Muh freedom! Suck it, illegitimate government. You should have made an HOA, instead.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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