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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) A libertarian case for climate action? (Read 1413 times)
The Opposition
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Re: A libertarian case for climate action?
Reply #60 - Oct 1st, 2019 at 10:02pm
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ahhell wrote on Oct 1st, 2019 at 5:26pm:
No citation needed, its a stupid argument on its face.  As noted above, there's no reason we should help the Chinese paddle.  Even if we slow only slow the process, that helps.  The negative consequences are delayed, which gives us time to learn more and convince the Chinese they need to stop paddling too.

China is the number 1 pruducer but the US is number two and Europe is number 3, that still goes a long way to mitigating the negative consequences.  We can accept reality and look for market based solutions that minimize the economic effects or we can let the progressives own the issue and pursue policies that will destroy the economy while having minimal impact on the climate and maximizing future suffering. 


The fact remains: You are calling for rights violations now to protect people from later losses that may not even be rights violations. And no, we don't know with 100% certainty that anthropogenic global warming will become catastrophic.

You said in the marijuana thread that 100% crystal ball certainty is required in order to take away potheads' pot.

I therefore say now that 100% crystal ball certainty is required to take away smokestacks or cars or whatever else you're trying to take away.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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The Opposition
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Re: A libertarian case for climate action?
Reply #61 - Oct 2nd, 2019 at 1:37am
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yamcha wrote on Sep 29th, 2019 at 8:56pm:
Hey, which backpack did you get?


I am leaning towards this one, even though it's twice what I wanted to spend.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07F3MG5D5?pf_rd_p=183f5289-9dc0-416f-942e-e8f...
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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yamcha
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Re: A libertarian case for climate action?
Reply #62 - Oct 2nd, 2019 at 1:50am
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 2nd, 2019 at 1:37am:
I am leaning towards this one, even though it's twice what I wanted to spend.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07F3MG5D5?pf_rd_p=183f5289-9dc0-416f-942e-e8f...


That looks pretty good but I am looking for a more vintage look without all the plastic.  I like this one but it is too big for my needs.
https://www.amazon.com/Rothco-Heavyweight-Alice-Coyote-Brown/dp/B000Q7E698/ref=s...

I try to go around as light as possible and have this one which fits my laptop and tablet but the single strap becomes uncomfortable and swings around too much.
https://www.amazon.com/Rothco-Canvas-Shoulder-Coyote-Brown/dp/B000BFJE38/ref=sr_...

I might have one of the street sewing shops out here convert it into a backpack.  It is amazing how innovative people in 3rd world countries are.  They can do anything you ask and for cheap too. I had these espadrilles custom made for me in just 30 minutes and only $9USD.  I had 5 more pair maid in different colors.  They feel great but suck bad when it rains.





  
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Jeff
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Re: A libertarian case for climate action?
Reply #63 - Oct 2nd, 2019 at 8:33am
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 1st, 2019 at 10:02pm:
The fact remains: You are calling for rights violations now to protect people from later losses that may not even be rights violations.
I disagree in that I think that if you pollute my air and water, you are causing harm to me, violating my rights. Polluters do violate the rights of others.

It seems clear to libertarians that granting the government control of the economy is not the best way to deal with such rights violations, and in fact is probably the worst solution imaginable.

Here's a better way:

https://fee.org/articles/where-will-climate-change-solutions-be-found/?utm_campa...
  

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ahhell
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Re: A libertarian case for climate action?
Reply #64 - Oct 2nd, 2019 at 9:35am
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 1st, 2019 at 10:02pm:
The fact remains: You are calling for rights violations now to protect people from later losses that may not even be rights violations. And no, we don't know with 100% certainty that anthropogenic global warming will become catastrophic.

You said in the marijuana thread that 100% crystal ball certainty is required in order to take away potheads' pot.

I therefore say now that 100% crystal ball certainty is required to take away smokestacks or cars or whatever else you're trying to take away.

That's the thing, you don't need to take anything away, that's certainly what progressives want you to think.  Since, conservatives and libertarians have pretty much just stuck their fingers in their ears and yelled nyeh nyeh I'm not listening, that's probably what we will get.

I agree with the above posted article, the solutions are not going to come from government bureuacrats and central planners, the will come from the private sector.  Thinks like fracking, but as long as we subsidizes fossil fuels and don't address the externality of carbon polution, there won't be any incentive to innovate. 

  
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ahhell
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Re: A libertarian case for climate action?
Reply #65 - Oct 2nd, 2019 at 9:45am
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Jeff wrote on Oct 1st, 2019 at 5:40pm:
There you go, thanks.

But, the U.S. and Europe seem to be pledging that they are willing to destroy their civilizations in order to reduce emissions, but China, and India, and Indonesia, and Africa, are saying "screw you"!

China plans to increase it's carbon emissions.

That is nonsensical hyperbole on bar with the worst of the climate change extremists.  Only, fools like AOC are pledging to destroy our economies.  Reasonable people, who take AGW seriously are suggesting reasonable and relatively minor adjustment to tax policy.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: A libertarian case for climate action?
Reply #66 - Oct 2nd, 2019 at 9:55am
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ahhell wrote on Oct 2nd, 2019 at 9:35am:
That's the thing, you don't need to take anything away, that's certainly what progressives want you to think.  Since, conservatives and libertarians have pretty much just stuck their fingers in their ears and yelled nyeh nyeh I'm not listening, that's probably what we will get.


Well what's your idea?

ahhell wrote on Oct 2nd, 2019 at 9:35am:
I agree with the above posted article, the solutions are not going to come from government bureuacrats and central planners, the will come from the private sector.  Thinks like fracking, but as long as we subsidizes fossil fuels and don't address the externality of carbon polution, there won't be any incentive to innovate. 


Even without fossil fuel subsidy I think it will be difficult to innovate because the drawback is not immediately felt and what we have works so well. It will be difficult for the new to compete with the existing unless the new is significantly better, and chances are it won't be, at least at first. The trouble is, you have to get past the at-first while being competitive.

Tesla only got there because of subsidy. At first, their batteries were not up to the task, making their gas tanks the size of a bean. They weren't practical.

https://realmoney.thestreet.com/investing/stocks/tesla-s-main-product-isn-t-cars...

It's kind of like asking if evolution will allow your species to grow gills. It won't, because you already have lungs. Even cetaceans and crocodilians never rediscovered the ability to breathe water, probably because the lungs work well enough that a nascent gill would never be an advantage. Yes, I think it's possible for a mutation to open a slit in a non-fish, non-amphibian, through which some oxygen can be absorbed from water. But not enough for the animal's oxygen needs and something like that would have to make up for its immediate disadvantage with immediate capability, which it would not, since the lungs are already present.

Jeff wrote on Oct 2nd, 2019 at 8:33am:
I disagree in that I think that if you pollute my air and water, you are causing harm to me, violating my rights. Polluters do violate the rights of others.


You must prove that rights violation and demonstrate direct harm. CO2, even if catastrophic, is a slow bullet you won't be able to prove until it hits.

yamcha wrote on Oct 2nd, 2019 at 1:50am:
That looks pretty good but I am looking for a more vintage look without all the plastic.  I like this one but it is too big for my needs.


The stick-out pockets probably aren't needed anyway. You'll probably have good luck converting your small bag because it will be sturdier if a real seamstress does it. Manufactured products are manufactured to break, so you have to buy another one. Whereas you'll never see that seamstress again, so she doesn't care.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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ahhell
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Re: A libertarian case for climate action?
Reply #67 - Oct 2nd, 2019 at 10:34am
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 2nd, 2019 at 9:55am:
Well what's your idea?

As I've said, end fossil fuel subsidies, that should be uncontroversial here. 

Also favor a moderate carbon tax, which I expect will be controversial here.  It doesn't have to be much to encourage big power producers to start looking towards forms of production that produce less carbon but likely wouldn't have much impact on consumers.  A consumer won't care about an extra few cents on a tank of gas or a few dollars on their power bill.  A utility that services millions of consumers losing a few cents on every house, they will care. Folks that run fleets of vehicles will care.  The market will work its magic, many things will be tried and the best mix of solutions will be found.  Once DHL, UPS, and FEDex figure out which low carbon motors work best for them, the costs to the average consumer will drop and the tech will work its way into the rest of the vehicles out there. 

Tesla will likely flop unless Musk sells to a big automaker.  They wont' succeed unless they can produce an electric vehicle that as decent range and low enough cost for the mass market.  That hasn't happened yet, and you are correct, they only reason it hasn't failed yet is due to subsidies.  If the can produce a mass market electric, it will outsell it competitors.  For a number reasons, consumers would likely prefer an electric if it had similar cost to a similar internal combustion engine.  Regardless, electric cars don't actually solve the problem, the still rely on coal, oil, and natural gas at the generators.  This is why the central planners never get anything right, they just shift problems around rather than actually solving them.  Better to incentivize the private sector to find solutions. 
  
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The Opposition
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Re: A libertarian case for climate action?
Reply #68 - Oct 2nd, 2019 at 10:50am
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ahhell wrote on Oct 2nd, 2019 at 10:34am:
As I've said, end fossil fuel subsidies, that should be uncontroversial here. 


I would bloody think so, but you never really know. All I've really learned on this forum is that if a libertarian wants to win an argument, he will, and it doesn't matter what the argument is for or against.

ahhell wrote on Oct 2nd, 2019 at 10:34am:
Also favor a moderate carbon tax, which I expect will be controversial here.  It doesn't have to be much to encourage big power producers to start looking towards forms of production that produce less carbon but likely wouldn't have much impact on consumers.  A consumer won't care about an extra few cents on a tank of gas or a few dollars on their power bill.  A utility that services millions of consumers losing a few cents on every house, they will care. Folks that run fleets of vehicles will care.  The market will work its magic, many things will be tried and the best mix of solutions will be found.  Once DHL, UPS, and FEDex figure out which low carbon motors work best for them, the costs to the average consumer will drop and the tech will work its way into the rest of the vehicles out there. 

Tesla will likely flop unless Musk sells to a big automaker.  They wont' succeed unless they can produce an electric vehicle that as decent range and low enough cost for the mass market.  That hasn't happened yet, and you are correct, they only reason it hasn't failed yet is due to subsidies.  If the can produce a mass market electric, it will outsell it competitors.  For a number reasons, consumers would likely prefer an electric if it had similar cost to a similar internal combustion engine.  Regardless, electric cars don't actually solve the problem, the still rely on coal, oil, and natural gas at the generators.  This is why the central planners never get anything right, they just shift problems around rather than actually solving them.  Better to incentivize the private sector to find solutions. 


Well, it's going to be controversial because it's a rights violation. You accuse the government of shifting problems, but instead of taking away cars and smokestacks, you just shift the problem and remove money. Still just as much of a rights violation.

You have a double-edged dilemma with the carbon tax. When the carbon credits scam ran around, the idea was to make it low enough to just have it paid.

If your tax is high enough that UPS can't pay it, they will be plunged into the same sort of darkness as if you'd taken away their smokestacks.

If your tax is low enough that they can pay it, they probably just will and they'll pass the extra cost along to consumers.

If consumers aren't worried about 3¢ then that's the problem, and the businesses will have no problem exploiting that problem and just shifting the burden there. And then the consumers will cry and ask for a minimum wage increase, which they'll get.

I say eliminate minimum wage first, make sure they have a 3¢ margin of live vs starve, then tax the consumer. They will care.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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ahhell
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Re: A libertarian case for climate action?
Reply #69 - Oct 2nd, 2019 at 1:28pm
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I don't see how a tax is just as much a rights violations as say, banning flights for the hoi polloi, forcing the vast majority of buildings to be torn down and rebuilt in accordance with the vision of the anointed or whatever BS AOC wants. 

The thing about a tax is there is a lot of room between so low it doesn't matter and so high UPS will go out of business.   There is a range that amounts to low enough it can be paid but high enough that UPS will look for alternatives. 
  
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