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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) A libertarian case for climate action? (Read 1412 times)
Jeff
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Re: A libertarian case for climate action?
Reply #70 - Oct 2nd, 2019 at 3:21pm
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ahhell wrote on Oct 2nd, 2019 at 9:45am:
That is nonsensical hyperbole on bar with the worst of the climate change extremists.  Only, fools like AOC are pledging to destroy our economies.  Reasonable people, who take AGW seriously are suggesting reasonable and relatively minor adjustment to tax policy. 
Well, who's winning the policy war? The fools.

And China, India, Indonesia, and Africa have expressed their intent to do nothing other than burn more fossil fuels, which we will no doubt keep selling to them.
  

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ahhell
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Re: A libertarian case for climate action?
Reply #71 - Oct 2nd, 2019 at 4:45pm
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Jeff wrote on Oct 2nd, 2019 at 3:21pm:
Well, who's winning the policy war? The fools.
The fools will win if they are the only ones with proposals. 
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And China, India, Indonesia, and Africa have expressed their intent to do nothing other than burn more fossil fuels, which we will no doubt keep selling to them.
This is false.  China at least is experimenting with a carbon tax in some locations.   Africa is a large and diverse continent, they don't have a single policy.  Regardless, their capacity to do something is more limited, they don't have the wealth or infrastructure in place that the West does. 

The US has cut carbon emissions by the way.  We've done it by allowing fracking which means relatively clean natural gas is now more economical for electricity production than oil and coal. 
  
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Jeff
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Re: A libertarian case for climate action?
Reply #72 - Oct 2nd, 2019 at 4:54pm
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ahhell wrote on Oct 2nd, 2019 at 4:45pm:
The fools will win if they are the only ones with proposals. 

They aren't. Libertarians propose free market methods. Pay attention. Thanks.
  

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Jeff
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Re: A libertarian case for climate action?
Reply #73 - Oct 2nd, 2019 at 5:02pm
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ahhell wrote on Oct 2nd, 2019 at 4:45pm:
This is false.  China at least is experimenting with a carbon tax in some locations.   Africa is a large and diverse continent, they don't have a single policy.  Regardless, their capacity to do something is more limited, they don't have the wealth or infrastructure in place that the West does. 


You didn't mention India or Indonesia.

You say it hopeless to think Africa will not get worse, and that China has an idea for taxing their people even more. Where will Chinese industries wanting to avoid paying lots of carbon tax get capital to modernize?

What if they are Party Enterprises to begin with? Are Party Enterprises going to be subject to the carbon tax too? (Edit: And what about all the various People's Army's armies?)

This is interesting: Edit: India, which you didn't mention, is the U.S. Coal industries best foreign market.

https://www.americangeosciences.org/critical-issues/faq/how-much-coal-does-us-ex...

This is interesting too, China decided to build dirty coal fired plants in third world countries, exporting Chinese coal to fuel them, and exporting some of their pollution.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamestaylor/2017/08/08/china-ramps-up-coal-exports-...
  

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Re: A libertarian case for climate action?
Reply #74 - Oct 2nd, 2019 at 5:43pm
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ahhell wrote on Oct 2nd, 2019 at 4:45pm:
...they don't have the wealth or infrastructure in place that the West does. 
This is false. The "West" does not have the infrastructure to reduce carbon emissions even as much as has already been mandated, and the necessary "wealth" will have to be borrowed or "created" by Central Banks.


  

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Jeff
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Re: A libertarian case for climate action?
Reply #75 - Oct 3rd, 2019 at 7:44am
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A real chance to improve the environment-

https://www.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/2019-10/regulation-v42n3-4-update.pdf?...

The lead in:

"The environmental record for biofuels is bleak , but upcoming regulatory reviews offer a chance to change course."
  

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ahhell
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Re: A libertarian case for climate action?
Reply #76 - Oct 3rd, 2019 at 10:14am
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Jeff wrote on Oct 2nd, 2019 at 4:54pm:
They aren't. Libertarians propose free market methods. Pay attention. Thanks.
What are the "free market solutions"?  All I've seen here is freemarkets and who gives a shit if the world burns because other people are burning it too!

I have proposed a free market solution and your response has been, "The Chinese are bad".


I didn't mention India and indonesia because the China, the US, and Europe are one two and three.  Europe and the US are relatively rich we can much better afford to do something, even moderate changes will have an impact. 

Side note, nothing is worse for the environment than poverty, as China, India, and Indonesia get richer, they'll start caring more about the environment when they have to care less where their next meal is coming from.
  
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Re: A libertarian case for climate action?
Reply #77 - Oct 3rd, 2019 at 10:24am
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ahhell wrote on Oct 2nd, 2019 at 1:28pm:
I don't see how a tax is just as much a rights violations as say, banning flights for the hoi polloi, forcing the vast majority of buildings to be torn down and rebuilt in accordance with the vision of the anointed or whatever BS AOC wants. 


Well yes, by the logic that stealing away something worth 2¢ is not as bad as stealing something worth $10,000. But since value isn't objective and I don't want to get into a mental discussion with myself about stealing child's worthless teddy bear being less of a rights violation than stealing a penny (or whether we should steal the teddy bear if it prevents a greater theft against a CEO) I prefer to just treat things according to whether or not they are rights violations.

ahhell wrote on Oct 2nd, 2019 at 1:28pm:
The thing about a tax is there is a lot of room between so low it doesn't matter and so high UPS will go out of business.   There is a range that amounts to low enough it can be paid but high enough that UPS will look for alternatives. 


I think it depends on two things:

1. Whether they can simply pass the cost on to the consumer

2. How stiff the competition is

If we have FedEx looking like it might be making a breakthrough, UPS might follow suit. But if there's no wiggle room to lose a little money, they can't afford to innovate whether you tax them or not.

If FedEx is just eating the tax, and the competition is super stiff, UPS won't be able to eat the tax, invest in innovation, and stay competitive.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
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Jeff
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Re: A libertarian case for climate action?
Reply #78 - Oct 3rd, 2019 at 12:32pm
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ahhell wrote on Oct 3rd, 2019 at 10:14am:
I have proposed a free market solution and your response has been, "The Chinese are bad".


You noted that fracking for natural gas has allowed less use of coal in the U.S. Edit: You also favor a carbon tax, which will be used like all our other taxes, it will have exemptions for favored business and punitive measures for unfavored businesses. Taxation is far from a free market solution, and it's not, in my opinion, likely to be a solution at all. Carbon tax revenues are just as likely to fund environmentally harmful "solutions" as to fund good solutions.

Free market solutions involve ending government subsidies, government mandates and government control of energy markets and allowing markets to work.

Another free market solution is to return pollution to the status of a tort and let individuals sue when they are harmed by it.

Harms caused by extreme weather can be mitigated by ending government subsidies for home owners insurance in high risk areas.

As to innovations that will lead to cleaner energy? No one knows, but motivations to innovate won't come when government mandates lead the way.

https://reason.com/2019/09/30/the-world-needs-innovators-not-lectures-from-teens...
  

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Re: A libertarian case for climate action?
Reply #79 - Oct 3rd, 2019 at 12:34pm
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ahhell wrote on Oct 3rd, 2019 at 10:14am:
Side note, nothing is worse for the environment than poverty, as China, India, and Indonesia get richer, they'll start caring more about the environment when they have to care less where their next meal is coming from. 
You are correct, but China is controlled by a Party, not by the wishes of the people of China. India and Indonesia are not much different, and the systems of government they have are impediments to wealth creation.

Anyway, If China, and India, and Indonesia, and Africa, continue to refuse to cut their carbon emissions, the models say it's all over in 12 years, so let's try to enjoy the last years of human life on Earth. Smiley
  

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