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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Can a Government Ever be Better than the People who Create It? (Read 851 times)
Little Big Man
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Can a Government Ever be Better than the People who Create It?
Oct 2nd, 2019 at 10:44am
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By "better," I mean more moral/ethical, more generous, more productive, more efficient, more wise, more insightful and more forward thinking?

Is it possible for people to create a government with only their beneficial qualities and without their detrimental qualities?

If so, how?
  

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yamcha
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Re: Can a Government Ever be Better than the People who Create It?
Reply #1 - Oct 2nd, 2019 at 11:04am
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You misunderstand.  Government does not exist, only people exist.  Government has no money, only people have money.  Government has no morals, only people have morals.
  
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SkyChief
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Re: Can a Government Ever be Better than the People who Create It?
Reply #2 - Oct 2nd, 2019 at 11:10am
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Little Big Man wrote on Oct 2nd, 2019 at 10:44am:
By "better," I mean more moral/ethical, more generous, more productive, more efficient, more wise, more insightful and more forward thinking?
Government should never be productive.   If your government is productive, then you have socialism, and that's bad.
  

Governments will always devise ways to deprive an honest man of his money or property, and claim that it's legal.
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Little Big Man
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Re: Can a Government Ever be Better than the People who Create It?
Reply #3 - Oct 2nd, 2019 at 11:46am
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SkyChief wrote on Oct 2nd, 2019 at 11:10am:
Government should never be productive.   If your government is productive, then you have socialism, and that's bad.


Governments should provide services, never produce goods.  I was using productive in the sense of producing more services with less resources, but I may be misusing that word.

One of my favorite bad example of government providing a service is having one officer per car in police vehicles, and then requiring officers to call for backup for nearly every call they respond to.

The reason that is done is classic government logic:  The elected official who runs a patrol force of one thousand officers in five hundred vehicles can buy five hundred more cars and say "I doubled the number of police units on the streets."  Cars cost far less money than hiring five hundred more officers.  Plus, it is very difficult to get any kind of personal gain from paying more salaries, but car dealers tend to find ways to play Santa Claus with government officials who bring them such lucrative purchase orders.

  

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SkyChief
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Re: Can a Government Ever be Better than the People who Create It?
Reply #4 - Oct 2nd, 2019 at 11:51am
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Little Big Man wrote on Oct 2nd, 2019 at 11:46am:
Governments should provide services, never produce goods. 

WHAT???

Who told you this?  OMG.

You're getting me back for being facetious in the Pick-axe man thread, right?

 
"Not thinking things through is the cornerstone of statist thought."  - SnarkySack
  

Governments will always devise ways to deprive an honest man of his money or property, and claim that it's legal.
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Little Big Man
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Re: Can a Government Ever be Better than the People who Create It?
Reply #5 - Oct 2nd, 2019 at 12:39pm
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SkyChief wrote on Oct 2nd, 2019 at 11:51am:
WHAT???

Who told you this?  OMG.

You're getting me back for being facetious in the Pick-axe man thread, right?

 
"Not thinking things through is the cornerstone of statist thought."  - SnarkySack


You don’t consider police and military protection to be services?
  

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SkyChief
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Re: Can a Government Ever be Better than the People who Create It?
Reply #6 - Oct 2nd, 2019 at 1:05pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Oct 2nd, 2019 at 12:39pm:
You don’t consider police and military protection to be services?
Not really.  Dry cleaning, automotive repair, abortion clinics, Pool Cleaning, Income Tax preparation, Beauty salon, Maid, Child care,  et al. . . . These are services.

Whenever a government finds itself in the "service" industry, something has gone horribly wrong.   

"Tragically, two-thirds to three-quarters of the federal budget can be described as Congress taking the rightful earnings of one American to give to another American—using one American to serve another. Such acts include farm subsidies, business bailouts, Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, food stamps, welfare, and many other programs." - Walter E. Williams
  

Governments will always devise ways to deprive an honest man of his money or property, and claim that it's legal.
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Jeff
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Re: Can a Government Ever be Better than the People who Create It?
Reply #7 - Oct 2nd, 2019 at 3:12pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Oct 2nd, 2019 at 10:44am:
By "better," I mean more moral/ethical, more generous, more productive, more efficient, more wise, more insightful and more forward thinking?

Is it possible for people to create a government with only their beneficial qualities and without their detrimental qualities?

If so, how?
Just by doing it.

Very few people are able to live up to their ideals, but that doesn't prevent them from possessing ideals and acting to enshrine their ideals in law.

For instance, slave owner Thomas Jefferson could write that it is a self-evident truth that all men are created equal, and go on owning slaves until he died.


  

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Jeff
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Re: Can a Government Ever be Better than the People who Create It?
Reply #8 - Oct 2nd, 2019 at 3:14pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Oct 2nd, 2019 at 12:39pm:
You don’t consider police and military protection to be services?
I do. Services to the entire community and the entire nation, services that are intended to serve the general welfare.

Our governments are granted only limited powers to provide certain services that serve everyone.

In the case of the federal government, the expected services are enumerated.
« Last Edit: Oct 3rd, 2019 at 7:18am by Jeff »  

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The Opposition
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Re: Can a Government Ever be Better than the People who Create It?
Reply #9 - Oct 2nd, 2019 at 11:24pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Oct 2nd, 2019 at 10:44am:
By "better," I mean more moral/ethical, more generous, more productive, more efficient, more wise, more insightful and more forward thinking?

Is it possible for people to create a government with only their beneficial qualities and without their detrimental qualities?

If so, how?


I would say no, but there's a very big reason why not.

The people who make the rules have an immense store of value at their fingertips, and they can become rich by portioning it out to the right people.

This means that politics attracts those who want to do that. Not only that, politics excludes people who don't want to do that. The people with the money intentionally created an environment where millions (at least) in ad campaigns are required to ever be elected to anything.

If you could take the money out of it, yes.

But I don't believe that's possible.

You can, however, get a government that's at least... not necessarily more corrupt than the body of the people by just picking them by a lottery.

Maybe the deeper answer you want is that there are a lot of good exclusion systems to combat corruption, but none of them work when >50% of the people are already corrupt.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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