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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Can a Government Ever be Better than the People who Create It? (Read 856 times)
Jeff
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Re: Can a Government Ever be Better than the People who Create It?
Reply #10 - Oct 3rd, 2019 at 7:20am
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 2nd, 2019 at 11:24pm:
I would say no, but there's a very big reason why not.

The people who make the rules have an immense store of value at their fingertips, and they can become rich by portioning it out to the right people.

This means that politics attracts those who want to do that.
You are correct, but only if you have a government that has been granted the power to redistribute wealth.
  

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Jeff
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Re: Can a Government Ever be Better than the People who Create It?
Reply #11 - Oct 3rd, 2019 at 7:24am
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 2nd, 2019 at 11:24pm:
The people with the money intentionally created an environment where millions (at least) in ad campaigns are required to ever be elected to anything.

If you could take the money out of it, yes.

But I don't believe that's possible.

There is much that is wrong with our campaign finance laws, not least that they violate the 1st Amendment, but you're right, you can't take money out if it.

Money is not nearly the problem that ballot access laws are.
  

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Little Big Man
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Re: Can a Government Ever be Better than the People who Create It?
Reply #12 - Oct 3rd, 2019 at 10:09am
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Jeff wrote on Oct 2nd, 2019 at 3:12pm:
Just by doing it.

Very few people are able to live up to their ideals, but that doesn't prevent them from possessing ideals and acting to enshrine their ideals in law.


Well put.  That is indeed the idea behind our own government.  When men who perceive themselves as good men put pen to paper, especially as a group, they represent their ideal selves and therefore what they write tends to be ideal.

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For instance, slave owner Thomas Jefferson could write that it is a self-evident truth that all men are created equal, and go on owning slaves until he died.




Yes, and Jefferson knew as he wrote it that he meant "as long as I can get my cotton picked, of course" or some such.  I picture him reading that line aloud and winking at the others in the room.
  

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Re: Can a Government Ever be Better than the People who Create It?
Reply #13 - Oct 3rd, 2019 at 10:21am
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But, I guess my point, Jeff, is that I don't doubt that men can create a plan for a government that is better than themselves as individuals. 

But can they create an actual government that is better than themselves as individuals?

History says "no."

  

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The Opposition
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Re: Can a Government Ever be Better than the People who Create It?
Reply #14 - Oct 3rd, 2019 at 10:33am
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Little Big Man wrote on Oct 3rd, 2019 at 10:21am:
But, I guess my point, Jeff, is that I don't doubt that men can create a plan for a government that is better than themselves as individuals. 

But can they create an actual government that is better than themselves as individuals?

History says "no."


I have actually been looking into the crisis of Venezuela lately, and it seems communism is only half the problem.

Even as communist governments go, Venezuela is massively corrupt. They can't seem to elect anyone who won't just steal everything and pass the buck to whichever poor sap comes next.

Their elected officials are all willing to ruin their country for personal gain.

You probably can't find a Chinese person who would engage in Venezuela's level of corruption.

The Chinese are out to help the Chinese, and if they're corrupt, it is toward that end.

Altruism is not an advantage unless it advantages insular groups. Yet altruism evolved.

This means there are two basic types of people in the word: The racist, and the sociopath.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
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Re: Can a Government Ever be Better than the People who Create It?
Reply #15 - Oct 3rd, 2019 at 11:47am
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 3rd, 2019 at 10:33am:
I have actually been looking into the crisis of Venezuela lately, and it seems communism is only half the problem.

Even as communist governments go, Venezuela is massively corrupt. They can't seem to elect anyone who won't just steal everything and pass the buck to whichever poor sap comes next.

Their elected officials are all willing to ruin their country for personal gain.

You probably can't find a Chinese person who would engage in Venezuela's level of corruption.

The Chinese are out to help the Chinese, and if they're corrupt, it is toward that end.

Altruism is not an advantage unless it advantages insular groups. Yet altruism evolved.

This means there are two basic types of people in the word: The racist, and the sociopath.


I think the myth is that governments start out well and end up becoming kleptocracies.  Sad truth is that every government on earth has started as a kleptocracy save the U.S. government under the Articles of Confederation. 

But the kind of people who want to be in government predictably could not sit still for that for very long so they foisted the false promise of a "limited" government on the states.

  

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Jeff
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Re: Can a Government Ever be Better than the People who Create It?
Reply #16 - Oct 3rd, 2019 at 1:09pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Oct 3rd, 2019 at 10:09am:
Yes, and Jefferson knew as he wrote it that he meant "as long as I can get my cotton picked, of course" or some such.  I picture him reading that line aloud and winking at the others in the room.
I picture him not thinking about slaves at all at that time.
  

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Jeff
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Re: Can a Government Ever be Better than the People who Create It?
Reply #17 - Oct 3rd, 2019 at 1:11pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Oct 3rd, 2019 at 10:21am:
But, I guess my point, Jeff, is that I don't doubt that men can create a plan for a government that is better than themselves as individuals. 

But can they create an actual government that is better than themselves as individuals?

History says "no."

Constant vigilance is required.

Written by Thomas Jefferson in 1798:

“A little patience, and we shall see the reign of witches pass over, their spells dissolve, and the people, recovering their true sight, restore their government to its true principles. It is true that in the meantime we are suffering deeply in spirit, and incurring the horrors of a war and long oppressions of enormous public debt...If the game runs sometime against us at home, we must have patience till luck turns, and then we shall have an opportunity of winning back the principles we have lost, for this is a game where principles are at stake.”
  

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Re: Can a Government Ever be Better than the People who Create It?
Reply #18 - Oct 3rd, 2019 at 1:14pm
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 3rd, 2019 at 10:33am:
I have actually been looking into the crisis of Venezuela lately, and it seems communism is only half the problem.

Even as communist governments go, Venezuela is massively corrupt.
South American countries have a history of corruption in government going back to the very first South American governments, and communist governments have always been the most corrupt of all. When you put a communist government on top of a tradition of government corruption, you get a candidate for "Most Corrupt Government Ever".
  

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Re: Can a Government Ever be Better than the People who Create It?
Reply #19 - Oct 3rd, 2019 at 1:16pm
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 3rd, 2019 at 10:33am:
You probably can't find a Chinese person who would engage in Venezuela's level of corruption.

Grin Grin Grin

Emperor Xi just recently launched yet another campaign to root out corruption in government...

China, like South America, has a tradition of corruption in government going back to it's first governments.
  

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