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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Can a Government Ever be Better than the People who Create It? (Read 823 times)
Jeff
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Re: Can a Government Ever be Better than the People who Create It?
Reply #20 - Oct 3rd, 2019 at 1:18pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Oct 3rd, 2019 at 11:47am:
I think the myth is that governments start out well and end up becoming kleptocracies.  Sad truth is that every government on earth has started as a kleptocracy save the U.S. government under the Articles of Confederation. 

But the kind of people who want to be in government predictably could not sit still for that for very long so they foisted the false promise of a "limited" government on the states.

It was a real promise, but "progressives" didn't like it because it limited government power, and government power is absolutely essential to "progressive" plans.

There is a very real difference between "How can we harness the power of government to protect lives, and rights, and property?" and "How can we harness the power of government to make people better?"

The "progressive" delusion is that government power can be used to fundamentally change individual people, or groups of people, to make them "better", to make them want to behave "better".
  

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Little Big Man
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Re: Can a Government Ever be Better than the People who Create It?
Reply #21 - Oct 4th, 2019 at 11:46am
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Jeff wrote on Oct 3rd, 2019 at 1:18pm:
It was a real promise, but "progressives" didn't like it because it limited government power, and government power is absolutely essential to "progressive" plans.

There is a very real difference between "How can we harness the power of government to protect lives, and rights, and property?" and "How can we harness the power of government to make people better?"

The "progressive" delusion is that government power can be used to fundamentally change individual people, or groups of people, to make them "better", to make them want to behave "better".



    Article IV, Section 2, Clause 3

    No Person held to Service or Labour in one State, under the Laws thereof, escaping into another, shall, in Consequence of any Law or Regulation therein, be discharged from such Service or Labour, but shall be delivered up on Claim of the Party to whom such Service or Labour may be due.


When a document as important as the U.S. Constitution uses the passive voice, it should automatically make us suspicious of the writers' intent. 

In that case what that clause does is require so-called "free states" to enforce slavery within their own state lines.  Thus the states of North Carolina and others effectively had the power to force states whose citizens opposed slavery to be slave states anyway.

When freedom compromises with slavery, the result is not partial freedom, the result is slavery.



  

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Re: Can a Government Ever be Better than the People who Create It?
Reply #22 - Oct 4th, 2019 at 1:06pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Oct 4th, 2019 at 11:46am:
    Article IV, Section 2, Clause 3

    No Person held to Service or Labour in one State, under the Laws thereof, escaping into another, shall, in Consequence of any Law or Regulation therein, be discharged from such Service or Labour, but shall be delivered up on Claim of the Party to whom such Service or Labour may be due.


When a document as important as the U.S. Constitution uses the passive voice, it should automatically make us suspicious of the writers' intent. 

In that case what that clause does is require so-called "free states" to enforce slavery within their own state lines.  Thus the states of North Carolina and others effectively had the power to force states whose citizens opposed slavery to be slave states anyway.

When freedom compromises with slavery, the result is not partial freedom, the result is slavery.



The eventual result of the compromise on slavery allowed in the Constitution was the War to End Slavery in America and the 13th Amendment.
  

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Re: Can a Government Ever be Better than the People who Create It?
Reply #23 - Oct 18th, 2019 at 3:14pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Oct 2nd, 2019 at 10:44am:
By "better," I mean more moral/ethical, more generous, more productive, more efficient, more wise, more insightful and more forward thinking?

Is it possible for people to create a government with only their beneficial qualities and without their detrimental qualities?

If so, how?


No, government cannot be better than the people.  Government can't be better than the worst of the people
  

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Re: Can a Government Ever be Better than the People who Create It?
Reply #24 - Oct 18th, 2019 at 3:18pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Oct 2nd, 2019 at 11:46am:
Governments should provide services, never produce goods.  I was using productive in the sense of producing more services with less resources, but I may be misusing that word.

One of my favorite bad example of government providing a service is having one officer per car in police vehicles, and then requiring officers to call for backup for nearly every call they respond to.

The reason that is done is classic government logic:  The elected official who runs a patrol force of one thousand officers in five hundred vehicles can buy five hundred more cars and say "I doubled the number of police units on the streets."  Cars cost far less money than hiring five hundred more officers.  Plus, it is very difficult to get any kind of personal gain from paying more salaries, but car dealers tend to find ways to play Santa Claus with government officials who bring them such lucrative purchase orders.



Right.  The answer is no, government will never provide a service efficiently ever.  Government sucks at everything.

The marketplace will always be superior for any competitive service.  The only services government should provide are those services where there can be only one and therefore there can be no competition.

You can only have one military, one police department, one court system, one recognizer of property rights, that sort of thing.  Government should do nothing other than that.  And they will do it badly.  But since competition is not possible, free markets can't do it at all
  

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Jeff
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Re: Can a Government Ever be Better than the People who Create It?
Reply #25 - Oct 18th, 2019 at 4:13pm
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kaz wrote on Oct 18th, 2019 at 3:14pm:
No, government cannot be better than the people.  Government can't be better than the worst of the people
Are you sure? What about the government of Sweden? You say it is just as bad as the very worst Swede?

Can you justify that with a rational argument?
  

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Jeff
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Re: Can a Government Ever be Better than the People who Create It?
Reply #26 - Oct 18th, 2019 at 4:17pm
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kaz wrote on Oct 18th, 2019 at 3:18pm:
Right.  The answer is no, government will never provide a service efficiently ever.  Government sucks at everything.

You have to keep after them and hold them responsible.

That might be the biggest problem leading to sucky government, that elected officials, and appointed officials, and the hired help, aren't held accountable.

SCOTUS gave them immunity, and they've been running with that idea ever since.
  

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Re: Can a Government Ever be Better than the People who Create It?
Reply #27 - Oct 18th, 2019 at 6:32pm
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When any government expands and becomes more powerful, liberty will go away.  Taxes will increase, then redistribution occurs.   With redistribution comes corruption and once corruption gains a foothold in the Courts, th-th-th-That's All Folks!

That's what happened in California.  Our Supreme Court makes their own Laws right from the bench!   Grin

The US Supreme Court looks like they are on the path towards corruption.  There's only 3 or 4 good Justices left.

“As government expands, liberty contracts.” - Ronald Reagan
  

Governments will always devise ways to deprive an honest man of his money or property, and claim that it's legal.
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Re: Can a Government Ever be Better than the People who Create It?
Reply #28 - Oct 18th, 2019 at 6:54pm
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SkyChief wrote on Oct 18th, 2019 at 6:32pm:
When any government expands and becomes more powerful...
You're talking about usurpation of power. Angry Angry Angry
  

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Re: Can a Government Ever be Better than the People who Create It?
Reply #29 - Oct 18th, 2019 at 6:57pm
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SkyChief wrote on Oct 18th, 2019 at 6:32pm:
The US Supreme Court looks like they are on the path towards corruption.  There's only 3 or 4 good Justices left.

In fact, SCOTUS has been improved by Trump's appointees.


  

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