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Little Big Man
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Re: The Marshmallow Test: Part Dueax
Reply #30 - Oct 8th, 2019 at 7:51am
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yamcha wrote on Oct 7th, 2019 at 11:23pm:
James Clavell wrote Shogun and Taipan and they are probably his best novels.  King Rat is actually about his personal experience being helped prisoner of war by the Japanese.  It tells the story of one guy in the camp who thrived and became rich and powerful while everyone else was starving and dying.  It is a good demonstration of how a free market works in real life amongst smaller groups.


King Rat is a great novel and a very good movie was made from it.

But it has exactly zero to do with how a free market works.  Corporal King and the other characters depicted were prisoners of a brutal fascist government being guarded by people who were corrupt even by the standards of brutal fascism. 

King thrived and prospered, not by providing the best goods and services at the lowest prices, but by managing to co-opt the forces that held his colleagues in bondage to enable himself to take advantage of their desperation which was caused by those forces. 
  

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yamcha
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Re: The Marshmallow Test: Part Dueax
Reply #31 - Oct 8th, 2019 at 8:50am
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Fair enough.  He did, however, show that capitalism works well even in a POW camp.  Have you read Taipan?  It's my favorite.
  
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Jeff
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Re: The Marshmallow Test: Part Dueax
Reply #32 - Oct 8th, 2019 at 10:25am
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 7th, 2019 at 9:21pm:
I'm still confused, because it seems to me that a man's right to his own money is in fact removed when you grant a privilege that supersedes it.
The power to tax is an abridgement of the right to property, not a denial.

Knowing that taxation is an abridgement of property rights (so is eminent domain), the Constitution sought to strictly limit the taxing power, just as it strictly limits the power of eminent domain.

It must be too subtle for a supergenious, but the rationale for taxation was, at least in part, to provide for a government that would be able to protect property rights. Rational people understand that in a state of anarchy, there is no protection for property other than your individual ability to protect it by force. I know you like that idea, probably imagining that the gang you are a part of has the most power, so you will end up with the most property.

You do actually have a moral compass, but it seems to consistently point to "might makes right". Cry

Since we're speaking of education, and government power, and rights, this is pertinent:

https://www.campusreform.org/?ID=13782
  

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The Opposition
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Re: The Marshmallow Test: Part Dueax
Reply #33 - Oct 8th, 2019 at 10:43am
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Jeff wrote on Oct 8th, 2019 at 10:25am:
The power to tax is an abridgement of the right to property, not a denial.


Whenever I ask about what is and is not right, you just add more words.

Either I should be able to keep my money or I shouldn't.

If I shouldn't, then that right, to that money, has been removed.

Little Big Man wrote on Oct 8th, 2019 at 7:51am:
King thrived and prospered, not by providing the best goods and services at the lowest prices, but by managing to co-opt the forces that held his colleagues in bondage to enable himself to take advantage of their desperation which was caused by those forces. 


Right. Capitalism at work.

Anyway, rewarding instant gratification over delayed gratification is a product of a capitalist society that's been running for long enough, because delayed gratification can be taken advantage of in the long game.

A grocery chain offered its employees wage increases, or pensions. The employees overwhelmingly selected the pensions, so the grocery store went bankrupt, bought itself back from bankruptcy court for a song, thereby shedding the pension obligations.

Quote:
“They did everyone dirty,” said Kilby Baker, 70, a retired warehouse worker whose pension check was cut by about 25 percent after Marsh Supermarkets withdrew from the pension. “We all gave up wage increases so we could have a better pension. Then they just took it away from us.”
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
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Jeff
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Re: The Marshmallow Test: Part Dueax
Reply #34 - Oct 8th, 2019 at 11:05am
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 8th, 2019 at 10:43am:
Either I should be able to keep my money or I shouldn't.


Even if you live on a seastead, you'll have to pay fees...

Edit: I have a solution for you, be the owner of a seastead! Then you can just collect money... Except I guess you'll have to pay to have the trash and sewage hauled off.... But you can charge enough for those services that you can make money on that too!
  

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Jeff
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Re: The Marshmallow Test: Part Dueax
Reply #35 - Oct 8th, 2019 at 11:07am
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 8th, 2019 at 10:43am:
If I shouldn't, then that right, to that money, has been removed.



Rights can be abridged or infringed as well as denied.

But yes, once you pay a tax, you no longer have any right to that money.
  

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Little Big Man
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Re: The Marshmallow Test: Part Dueax
Reply #36 - Oct 8th, 2019 at 1:36pm
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yamcha wrote on Oct 8th, 2019 at 8:50am:
Fair enough.  He did, however, show that capitalism works well even in a POW camp. 


Now that I think about it, you're right.  At least the part when King figured out a way to sell meat to hungry senior officers.  He produced something that he predicted he could find a market for, he was using the labor of others,  and he sold it at a higher price than what he spent producing it, thus creating a profit (what Marx called "surplus value."  So he was indeed a capitalist.

Quote:
Have you read Taipan?  It's my favorite.


I'll check it out, thanks!
  

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Jeff
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Re: The Marshmallow Test: Part Dueax
Reply #37 - Oct 8th, 2019 at 4:31pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Oct 8th, 2019 at 1:36pm:
Now that I think about it, you're right.  At least the part when King figured out a way to sell meat to hungry senior officers.  He produced something that he predicted he could find a market for, he was using the labor of others,  and he sold it at a higher price than what he spent producing it, thus creating a profit (what Marx called "surplus value."  So he was indeed a capitalist.


I'll check it out, thanks!
I liked it enough to read it at least three times. Shogun too.

I only read King Rat twice. It's somewhat depressing.
  

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Re: The Marshmallow Test: Part Dueax
Reply #38 - Oct 8th, 2019 at 10:50pm
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Jeff wrote on Oct 8th, 2019 at 11:07am:
Rights can be abridged or infringed as well as denied.

But yes, once you pay a tax, you no longer have any right to that money.


So I never did, otherwise it would have been wrong to take it away.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: The Marshmallow Test: Part Dueax
Reply #39 - Oct 9th, 2019 at 7:05am
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 8th, 2019 at 10:50pm:
So I never did, otherwise it would have been wrong to take it away.
Legally authorized taxation for the legitimate purposes of government is not wrong, so long as it conforms to the legal limits on the taxing power.

Anarchists disagree.
  

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