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Little Big Man
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Re: The Marshmallow Test: Part Dueax
Reply #40 - Oct 9th, 2019 at 9:23am
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Jeff wrote yesterday at 11:07am:
Quote:
Rights can be abridged or infringed as well as denied.

But yes, once you pay a tax, you no longer have any right to that money.


The Opposition wrote on Oct 8th, 2019 at 10:50pm:
So I never did, otherwise it would have been wrong to take it away.


Yes, that is exactly it!

The test I use of the word "right" in this context is that if I have a right to do something or not to do something, it would be wrong to take away my ability to do it or force me to do it.  It is right vs. wrong. 

That does not mean that no one has the power to take a right away.  That happens all the time.  One way to that is to be an individual of great strength and ruthlessness to take away rights from others.  But that is not very reliable because people can arm themselves or band together to protect themselves from that individual.  The most reliable way to abridge rights is to group together in greater numbers than the people from whom you wish to take the rights.  That is, in fact, the basis of any democratic system.

So, does that mean that our friend Jeff does not believe in the existence of any rights?  Not at all.  Though he will never say so, Jeff believes in the absolute right of a collective to take property rights from the individual as long as they first write a law allowing them to do so and as long as there are what he refers to as "limits."

Unfortunately, what he considers "limits" are not limits at all.  In Jeff's belief system, there is no ceiling on the amount a government can collect and there is no floor below which an individual person's wealth may not be collected. 

His "limits" are his interpretation of the rules of the constitution which only apply to the federal government and have never been interpreted in the way he claims they were intended.  Therefor he can safely claim to be against unlimited taxation know that there are no limits so his government checks will keep coming.




  

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Jeff
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Re: The Marshmallow Test: Part Dueax
Reply #41 - Oct 9th, 2019 at 10:30am
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Little Big Man wrote on Oct 9th, 2019 at 9:23am:
The most reliable way to abridge rights is to group together in greater numbers than the people from whom you wish to take the rights.  That is, in fact, the basis of any democratic system.
That's one reason the founders avoided creating a democratic system of government.

Your right to own property in the U.S. is protected by a system of government supported by taxes.

Eliminate the taxes, and you eliminate the protection for your right to own property. Smiley
  

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Little Big Man
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Re: The Marshmallow Test: Part Dueax
Reply #42 - Oct 9th, 2019 at 11:10am
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Jeff wrote on Oct 9th, 2019 at 10:30am:
That's one reason the founders avoided creating a democratic system of government.

Your right to own property in the U.S. is protected by a system of government supported by taxes.

Eliminate the taxes, and you eliminate the protection for your right to own property. Smiley


Nope.

Not if I can voluntarily pay for enforcement of the title to my land and voluntarily pay whatever I think it is worth to have security patrols (public, private or mixed), protect my personal property.

In a system like that, I have a real right to property that cannot be voted away, and I decide how much to spend protecting it.


  

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Re: The Marshmallow Test: Part Dueax
Reply #43 - Oct 9th, 2019 at 12:31pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Oct 9th, 2019 at 9:23am:
In Jeff's belief system, there is no ceiling on the amount a government can collect and there is no floor below which an individual person's wealth may not be collected. 

His "limits" are his interpretation of the rules of the constitution which only apply to the federal government and have never been interpreted in the way he claims they were intended.  Therefor he can safely claim to be against unlimited taxation know that there are no limits so his government checks will keep coming.



Governments will always devise ways to deprive an honest man of his money or property, and claim that it's legal.
  
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Little Big Man
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Re: The Marshmallow Test: Part Dueax
Reply #44 - Oct 9th, 2019 at 2:09pm
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Jeff wrote on Oct 7th, 2019 at 8:36am:
People decide in democratic fashion to grant their local government the power to tax their property to fund schools, and also decide, in democratic fashion, how much the tax will be.


Jeff wrote on Oct 9th, 2019 at 10:30am:
That's one reason the founders avoided creating a democratic system of government.



I've got to admire your flexibility!
  

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Jeff
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Re: The Marshmallow Test: Part Dueax
Reply #45 - Oct 9th, 2019 at 3:33pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Oct 9th, 2019 at 11:10am:
Nope.

Not if I can voluntarily pay for enforcement of the title to my land and voluntarily pay whatever I think it is worth to have security patrols (public, private or mixed), protect my personal property.

In a system like that, I have a real right to property that cannot be voted away, and I decide how much to spend protecting it.


You can dream about a system like that, but it's never existed.

Anyway, since I have more money and power than you do, I'll pay to have your land registered to me, and then I'll use my more powerful security force to protect the right to what is now my property.
  

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Jeff
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Re: The Marshmallow Test: Part Dueax
Reply #46 - Oct 9th, 2019 at 3:36pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Oct 9th, 2019 at 2:09pm:
I've got to admire your flexibility!
A national government of a purely democratic nature is a disaster waiting to happen.

So is a state government organized on pure democratic lines.

Subordinate governments, like town governments, can do things in purely democratic ways, because the state and federal governments are charged with preventing those subordinate governments from violating individual rights, which places limits on what the people can vote for. (Or at least on what they can enforce. Your town can vote to make Mexicans slaves, but you can't actually do it.)
  

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Re: The Marshmallow Test: Part Dueax
Reply #47 - Oct 9th, 2019 at 3:49pm
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Jeff wrote on Oct 9th, 2019 at 3:36pm:
A national government of a purely democratic nature is a disaster waiting to happen.

So is a state government organized on pure democratic lines.

Subordinate governments, like town governments, can do things in purely democratic ways, because the state and federal governments are charged with preventing those subordinate governments from violating individual rights, which places limits on what the people can vote for. (Or at least on what they can enforce. Your town can vote to make Mexicans slaves, but you can't actually do it.)


So, once again, when confronted with your own contradictions, you insist that you said something else.


  

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Re: The Marshmallow Test: Part Dueax
Reply #48 - Oct 9th, 2019 at 3:52pm
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Jeff wrote on Oct 9th, 2019 at 3:33pm:
You can dream about a system like that, but it's never existed.

Anyway, since I have more money and power than you do, I'll pay to have your land registered to me, and then I'll use my more powerful security force to protect the right to what is now my property.


LoL!

That's what you can do under our current system.

Kelo v. City of New London, 545 U.S. 469 (2005)


The principal dissent was issued on 25 June 2005 by Justice O'Connor, joined by Chief Justice Rehnquist and Justices Scalia and Thomas. The dissenting opinion suggested that the use of this taking power in a reverse Robin Hood fashion— take from the poor, give to the rich— would become the norm, not the exception:

    Any property may now be taken for the benefit of another private party, but the fallout from this decision will not be random. The beneficiaries are likely to be those citizens with disproportionate influence and power in the political process, including large corporations and development firms.[9]

  

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Re: The Marshmallow Test: Part Dueax
Reply #49 - Oct 9th, 2019 at 3:56pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Oct 9th, 2019 at 3:49pm:
So, once again, when confronted with your own contradictions, you insist that you said something else.


No, I'm just trying to find a way to explain it so you can understand it. I don't think you want to understand it. Cry
  

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