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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Can Rights be Voted into and out of Existance? (Read 1183 times)
Little Big Man
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Can Rights be Voted into and out of Existance?
Oct 7th, 2019 at 12:44pm
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I would say, "no," unless we are using a completely different meaning of the word "rights," than commonly understood.

For example, the framers voted to protect specific rights in the Constitution, such as the right to speak freely, to bear arms, to avoid self-incrimination, to import slaves, to decline to quarter soldiers in time of peace and to have a lawful process for quartering them in time of war.  But they did not create those rights.  Had they voted for those rights to be removed instead of protected, those rights would still exist, they would just be trampled.  They left out the right to own property, but that right still exists.

This is the main sticking point for libertarians.  Surely there can be no way for government to vote that right away.   A simply majority can vote to tax for all the wonderful things that majority has been promised will be done with the confiscated property.  But they cannot really remove the right to own property.  Rather they can exercise a formalized version of mob rule that lets the many take from the few with impunity.

Why is that a sticking point for libertarians?  Because there has never been a government that operates without taxes, so it is up to us to explain how such a thing is possible.

  

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ahhell
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Re: Can Rights be Voted into and out of Existance?
Reply #1 - Oct 7th, 2019 at 1:09pm
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No, but they can be voted into legal inconsequence. 

I'd be curious how the word "rights" is commonly understood.  Anecdotally, its seems like there isn't much of a common understanding these days.  I wonder if there is polling on the matter. 



  
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Re: Can Rights be Voted into and out of Existance?
Reply #2 - Oct 7th, 2019 at 1:20pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Oct 7th, 2019 at 12:44pm:
Because there has never been a government that operates without taxes, so it is up to us to explain how such a thing is possible.
But there ARE countries that don't have taxes;

Bermuda, Monaco, the Bahamas, Andorra and the United Arab Emirates (UAE) have no income or property taxes.

We can point to these countries as models for a government based on freedom and liberty, and without taxes! 
  
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Jeff
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Re: Can Rights be Voted into and out of Existance?
Reply #3 - Oct 7th, 2019 at 2:18pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Oct 7th, 2019 at 12:44pm:
Why is that a sticking point for libertarians?  Because there has never been a government that operates without taxes, so it is up to us to explain how such a thing is possible.

Go ahead, try again... Just keep in mind that what you said is true, despite the fact that the great majority of people don't like to be taxed, they've never figured out how to have any government without taxation.
  

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Jeff
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Re: Can Rights be Voted into and out of Existance?
Reply #4 - Oct 7th, 2019 at 2:23pm
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ahhell wrote on Oct 7th, 2019 at 1:09pm:
I'd be curious how the word "rights" is commonly understood.  Anecdotally, its seems like there isn't much of a common understanding these days.  I wonder if there is polling on the matter. 



Good question.

I know that "progressives" have worked long and hard to convince people that they have a "right" to housing, food, clothing, medical care, a college education, means of communicating, etc.

Probably it's worked, and most people think that the term "right" is synonymous with the words "need" and "want".

Here's a poll question I'd ask- "Do you think you have a right to anything you think you need?"

And another- "Do you think you have a right to anything you want"


  

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Jeff
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Re: Can Rights be Voted into and out of Existance?
Reply #5 - Oct 7th, 2019 at 2:25pm
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SkyChief wrote on Oct 7th, 2019 at 1:20pm:
But there ARE countries that don't have taxes;

Bermuda, Monaco, the Bahamas, Andorra and the United Arab Emirates (UAE) have no income or property taxes.

How do the governments of those countries get money to operate? Donations? Or maybe they have their own money and use it?

Or could it be you don't know the truth?

https://andorraguides.com/tax/rates/
  

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SkyChief
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Re: Can Rights be Voted into and out of Existance?
Reply #6 - Oct 7th, 2019 at 2:55pm
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Jeff wrote on Oct 7th, 2019 at 2:25pm:
How do the governments of those countries get money to operate? Donations? Or maybe they have their own money and use it?

Or could it be you don't know the truth?

https://andorraguides.com/tax/rates/
Ok, ya got me on Andorra.   Embarrassed     So scratch Andorra off the list of countries with no taxes.

Bermuda, Monaco, the Bahamas, and the United Arab Emirates (UAE) have no income or property taxes.

It's embarrassing that these countries understand individual freedom and liberty better than the US.

I don't pretend to know how they do it.  I suspect they might get government funding through Sales Taxes, or Tariffs.  Maybe both??     It's just a guess.
  
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Little Big Man
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Re: Can Rights be Voted into and out of Existance?
Reply #7 - Oct 7th, 2019 at 4:06pm
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Jeff wrote on Oct 7th, 2019 at 2:18pm:
Go ahead, try again... Just keep in mind that what you said is true, despite the fact that the great majority of people don't like to be taxed, they've never figured out how to have any government without taxation.


Not true about the never part.

It is actually quite simple, once one realizes one thing.
  

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Re: Can Rights be Voted into and out of Existance?
Reply #8 - Oct 7th, 2019 at 4:07pm
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SkyChief wrote on Oct 7th, 2019 at 2:55pm:
Ok, ya got me on Andorra.   Embarrassed     So scratch Andorra off the list of countries with no taxes.

Bermuda, Monaco, the Bahamas, and the United Arab Emirates (UAE) have no income or property taxes.

It's embarrassing that these countries understand individual freedom and liberty better than the US.

I don't pretend to know how they do it.  I suspect they might get government funding through Sales Taxes, or Tariffs.  Maybe both??     It's just a guess.
Right. Taxation funds their governments.

Here's how the Bahamas does it:

https://www.thebahamasguide.com/facts/taxes/
  

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Re: Can Rights be Voted into and out of Existance?
Reply #9 - Oct 7th, 2019 at 4:10pm
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SkyChief wrote on Oct 7th, 2019 at 1:20pm:
But there ARE countries that don't have taxes;

Bermuda, Monaco, the Bahamas, Andorra and the United Arab Emirates (UAE) have no income or property taxes.

We can point to these countries as models for a government based on freedom and liberty, and without taxes! 


Taking the UAE as the only country I know anything about (and that isn't much), I would argue that by the government's owning all oil rights, they have already taxed the country on everything in advance.  No need to tax the petroleum engineers, the roughnecks, the secretaries, the food vendors that feed them nor the teachers that teach their children, because the government is the only real employer.  The government is profiting directly from the labor of those individuals, taxing them would just complicate things.

I'm not sure that is a bad thing.  Only government can grant rights to land and the minerals within.  So if it were a government that was libertarian in all laws which supported itself through the sale of oil to foreigners, that might work well.

So long as there was never democracy.

  

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