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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Can Rights be Voted into and out of Existance? (Read 1177 times)
The Opposition
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Re: Can Rights be Voted into and out of Existance?
Reply #30 - Oct 9th, 2019 at 10:20am
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Little Big Man wrote on Oct 9th, 2019 at 10:01am:
Eliminating taxes =/= anarchy.

The simple trick is to start with the premise that government will protect rights, not abridge them.  Since taxes abridge natural right to own property, government will be limited by how much government can be paid for through voluntary transactions.


You can't have that kind of government because Humans are selfish. They don't care about the rights of others, so the government will grow fat off taxing a minority that can't do anything about it.

Once it becomes powerful, it will tax everyone.

You think you can have a kitten forever by just starving it.

Milk spoils. Kittens become cats. That's just the facts of life.

If you like cats, fine.

But if you don't, don't get a kitten.

Little Big Man wrote on Oct 9th, 2019 at 10:01am:
Many, many huge and useful organizations have been built through voluntary transactions so any claim that such a thing is not possible is based on fantasy.


I believe you, but they won't completely grow into the government niche if there's already an effective government that wants to retain its niche.

Still, with an ineffective government, they'll try.

The government has zero effect on me beyond the taxes I pay. If you want to talk about who I have to plan my actions by, who really tells me what I can't do, that would be the media. I am much more afraid of getting caught doing something wrong by the media than by the government, because the punishment is greater.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
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Jeff
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Re: Can Rights be Voted into and out of Existance?
Reply #31 - Oct 9th, 2019 at 10:34am
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Little Big Man wrote on Oct 9th, 2019 at 10:01am:
Many, many huge and useful organizations have been built through voluntary transactions so any claim that such a thing is not possible is based on fantasy.
Yes, but never a government.
  

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Jeff
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Re: Can Rights be Voted into and out of Existance?
Reply #32 - Oct 9th, 2019 at 10:37am
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 9th, 2019 at 10:20am:
If you want to talk about who I have to plan my actions by, who really tells me what I can't do, that would be the media. I am much more afraid of getting caught doing something wrong by the media than by the government, because the punishment is greater.
If somebody outs you on Facebook as a serial killer, the government might investigate and send people to arrest you. Cheesy

Personally, I have no fear of the media at all. Smiley
  

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Little Big Man
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Re: Can Rights be Voted into and out of Existance?
Reply #33 - Oct 9th, 2019 at 11:07am
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Jeff wrote on Oct 9th, 2019 at 10:34am:
Yes, but never a government.


Sure they have.

Yes, the overwhelming majority of governments have been tax-based organizations from start to finish.  They were instituted by armed robbers as a way to formalize their robbery in a way that could be passed on to their future generations who might not have as much talent in violence as the originators.

But, unique to America in its early and middle period were small local governments that did not tax, but kept their activities so limited and so focused on protecting rights that productive citizens did not mind contributing to them voluntarily. 

Building a school house and hiring a teacher was on of the things that local shop keepers and bankers contributed to.  Your insistence that it is better to collect taxes at gunpoint for that purpose indicates an agenda that has nothing to do with providing all kids a basic education.
  

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Jeff
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Re: Can Rights be Voted into and out of Existance?
Reply #34 - Oct 9th, 2019 at 3:30pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Oct 9th, 2019 at 11:07am:
But, unique to America in its early and middle period were small local governments that did not tax, but kept their activities so limited and so focused on protecting rights that productive citizens did not mind contributing to them voluntarily. 

Building a school house and hiring a teacher was on of the things that local shop keepers and bankers contributed to.
They didn't actually have governments, and I don't think that sort of thing was exclusive to early America.

Calling a village meeting and discussing what to do about lawlessness (or educating the children) then deciding how to do it, maybe agreeing to have a certain person be "the Sheriff" when he wasn't busy farming, or to take donations to hire a teacher (or agree that certain volunteers would teach the children when they weren't busy cooking and canning and making clothes, and when the children weren't busy helping) doesn't constitute a government, and what you are talking about only happened (and only worked) in very small communities where every body knew everybody.

But even then, they lived under the laws of the colonial or state government, and often of a county government, or a territorial government, all of which were supported by taxation.
  

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Little Big Man
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Re: Can Rights be Voted into and out of Existance?
Reply #35 - Oct 9th, 2019 at 3:46pm
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Jeff wrote on Oct 9th, 2019 at 3:30pm:
They didn't actually have governments, and I don't think that sort of thing was exclusive to early America.

Calling a village meeting and discussing what to do about lawlessness (or educating the children) then deciding how to do it, maybe agreeing to have a certain person be "the Sheriff" when he wasn't busy farming, or to take donations to hire a teacher (or agree that certain volunteers would teach the children when they weren't busy cooking and canning and making clothes, and when the children weren't busy helping) doesn't constitute a government, and what you are talking about only happened (and only worked) in very small communities where every body knew everybody.


Oh, so your claim that "no government is possible without taxes" is based on your special definition of "government" as "the people who are empowered to tax." 

Edited:
Re-reading your post, I guess you would also say that government is "the people that can make you send your kids to the tax-funded school when you need them to help with the canning."


I see that logic once one accepts that the English language is infinitely flexible, which I have not yet done.

Quote:
But even then, they lived under the laws of the colonial or state government, and often of a county government, or a territorial government, all of which were supported by taxation.


Right, but those governments didn't help them at all.  Distances were too far for them to do good, but they could do harm by long distance by sending out the tax gunmen.

You have a better claim to say that the government in Austin helps the people in Houston due to modern transportation and communication.  They don't, but at least if you claim they do, you'd have a more logical case than to claim that the government in Washington DC helped people in frontier towns.
  

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Jeff
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Re: Can Rights be Voted into and out of Existance?
Reply #36 - Oct 9th, 2019 at 3:51pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Oct 9th, 2019 at 3:46pm:
Oh, so your claim that "no government is possible without taxes" is based on your special definition of "government" as "the people who are empowered to tax." 


I use the word "government" in it's standard meanings.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/government

It's you who is trying to give the word a non-standard meaning.
  

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Re: Can Rights be Voted into and out of Existance?
Reply #37 - Oct 9th, 2019 at 3:54pm
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Little Big Man wrote on Oct 9th, 2019 at 3:46pm:
Right, but those governments didn't help them at all.
Sometimes they helped in direct ways, but they always helped by providing a rule of law that could be used as a reference. Smiley
  

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Little Big Man
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Re: Can Rights be Voted into and out of Existance?
Reply #38 - Oct 10th, 2019 at 12:57pm
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Jeff wrote on Oct 9th, 2019 at 3:54pm:
Sometimes they helped in direct ways, but they always helped by providing a rule of law that could be used as a reference. Smiley


Can you give me an example of how that worked?

  

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Little Big Man
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Re: Can Rights be Voted into and out of Existance?
Reply #39 - Oct 10th, 2019 at 12:58pm
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Jeff wrote on Oct 9th, 2019 at 3:51pm:
I use the word "government" in it's standard meanings.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/government

It's you who is trying to give the word a non-standard meaning.


Nowhere in this definition:

Quote:
Definition of government

1 : the act or process of governing specifically : authoritative direction or control
2 obsolete : moral conduct or behavior : discretion
3a : the office, authority, or function of governing
b obsolete : the term during which a governing official holds office
4 : the continuous exercise of authority over and the performance of functions for a political unit : rule
5a : the organization, machinery, or agency through which a political unit exercises authority and performs functions and which is usually classified according to the distribution of power within it She works for the federal government.
b : the complex of political institutions, laws, and customs through which the function of governing is carried out
6 : the body of persons that constitutes the governing authority of a political unit or organization: such as
a : the officials comprising the governing body of a political unit and constituting the organization as an active agency The government was slow to react to the crisis.
b capitalized : the executive branch of the U.S. federal government
c capitalized : a small group of persons holding simultaneously the principal political executive offices of a nation or other political unit and being responsible for the direction and supervision of public affairs:
(1) : such a group in a parliamentary system constituted by the cabinet or by the ministry
(2) : administration sense 4b


Is taxation mentioned.



  

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