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libertytorch95
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"Greed"
Oct 18th, 2019 at 10:32pm
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What's with greed being used as a bad word? It's just love for money. In other words, love for green pieces of paper. Literally. Not any different from love for movies, books, girls or any other thing one desires in his life. No one should feel bad for that.

It is used when speaking of "unneeded money excess". Arrrright, but who decides what amount of money is excessive? And who gets to decide what is needed? As I see it people who say that seem to imply that all we should have is enough money to live. Enough to afford a single house with some food, a bathroom, a bed and that'd be it, right? But if I want more than what is needed for any human to survive biologically (those things), even if it's one dollar more than the "fair" and "not greedy" amount of money needed to live well enough, does that make me greedy and a bad person?

Another thing that's dumb is the implication that you're greedy for keeping your own money. Sounds logical, until you get to realize that people who say that want you to "share" that money. But the stupid part is that the one you share it with gets it for free, while you get nothing in exchange. I ask, isn't it greedier to receive money for free without benefiting both parties by trading instead? Why do you have to be forced to satisfy the self interest of others by sharing your money with them? People seem to forget being "greedy" or selfish" isn't neither moral nor immoral. You're just pursuing your own self interest by wanting to get more green pieces of paper for yourself, rather than sacrificing your time to satisfy someone else's self interest with them. Altruism is overrated, as it comes from selfishness (if you do good to others it's because YOU want to do it, so you're being selfish like it or not. The only way to garantee you don't satisfy someone else's self interest without satisfying your own is if someone else o forces you to do so without your approval (coercion). Regardless of how much money you have, I see no reason to see why greed is bad.


It just annoys me so much when people say "but what about the poor who can't pay for education, healthcare, etc? You're greedy and selfish for not paying your taxes". I understand the concern but using greed and selfishness as criticisms of those who oppose to pay taxes for that kinda stuff is dumb.

  
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The Opposition
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Re: "Greed"
Reply #1 - Oct 18th, 2019 at 11:04pm
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I always point out that socialists are just as greedy as capitalists.

They, also, want others to have less so that they, personally, can have more.

If they weren't greedy, they'd accept their lot as wage slaves and they wouldn't care unless they were in immediate danger of dying.

They want more, more, more, just like the capitalist. Things unnecessary for existence. Video game consoles, big screen TVs, cable, and lots of free time to indulge in all that crap.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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libertytorch95
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Re: "Greed"
Reply #2 - Oct 18th, 2019 at 11:42pm
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Wage slave? What the hell is a wage slave?


Like... a slave with a salary that can choose freely to work with whoever he pleases wiithin his enviroment? A free man who has a low wage is not necessarily a slave lol. You can also be a slave with good standards of living.

I'd argue you're more of a slave in socialism (even if you have all your basic needs covered), since you don't really have any control over how much you earn or not. It's so shitty since one's money is determined by how much has he benefited the consumer by selling him something he subjectively values in a free market society, so does that mean that he central planning alternative would be a group of people controlling your wage rewarding you what they subjectively consider fair for you? That's so effing dictatorial.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: "Greed"
Reply #3 - Oct 18th, 2019 at 11:53pm
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libertytorch95 wrote on Oct 18th, 2019 at 11:42pm:
Wage slave? What the hell is a wage slave?


Someone who has no reasonable options to make more than subsistence.

Say it's not possible in capitalism, fine. I don't care.

The point is, if people weren't greedy, they would be happy with this, not seeking to work less and get more.

Everybody wants more, more, more.

The fact that socialists say, "You should give me your stuff because you're greedy," and people believe them, is absolutely laughable.

Most of them are the worst sort of greedy: They're not even poor themselves, they're just fishing for moral accolades.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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yamcha
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Re: "Greed"
Reply #4 - Oct 18th, 2019 at 11:56pm
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yamcha wrote on Jul 31st, 2019 at 9:14pm:
All nations are just open-air slave plantations, allowing their indentured servant populations to choose their occupation, giving the illusion of freedom then swooping in on payday to steal the fruits of their labor.  This is why all governments are criminal and immoral and why the only just system of government is anarchism or volunteerism.

There is no political solution to the problem of government.  Voting for a new ceremonial figurehead every 4 years has never, can never and could never create any lasting positive change because governments cannot improve or be made moral from within.  There are too many vested interests and no statist system be it monarchy, oligarchy, communism, democracy, republic or dictatorship, none of them respect the right of the individual to opt-out of being governed.

When the mafia comes around to your business they always promise to protect you providing you pay and obey them.  If you refuse to comply, however, the mafia burns your fukking business to the ground.  Similarly, are statist governments promise to help and protect their populations as long as we pay and obey but if we don't then they seize our asses and our assets and throw us in a cage. 

The problem is giving one privileged class the legal right to commit violence and coercion against the rest of the population.  All fukking governments initiate the use of violence in the form of peace officers and coercion, in the form of taxes against their populations and this is completely immoral and unacceptable.  Consensual sex is moral because it is voluntary, whereas rape is immoral because it is forced.  Similarly, things like charity, donation and the free market because they are voluntary, whereas theft and taxation are immoral because they are forced.

The root problem with government is not that it is inherently criminal or corrupt, these are just symptoms and side effects of statism.  The root problem is that its mandates are mandatory and its compulsions, compulsory  For a government to be made into moral institutions, all taxes and interactions must be made voluntary.

« Last Edit: Oct 19th, 2019 at 10:04am by yamcha »  
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Jeff
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Re: "Greed"
Reply #5 - Oct 19th, 2019 at 7:33am
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 18th, 2019 at 11:04pm:
I always point out that socialists are just as greedy as capitalists.

I disagree. I think it indicates a higher (lower? bigger?)  worse form of greed to want the government to steal and give you what has been stolen. Especially if you want to have the bread stolen from the mouths of working people. Angry

Entrepreneurs prefer to get their money by honest methods, which I think indicates that they are less greedy than socialists.
  

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Jeff
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Re: "Greed"
Reply #6 - Oct 19th, 2019 at 7:43am
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 18th, 2019 at 11:53pm:
Someone who has no reasonable options to make more than subsistence.

Even people who drop out of school before they learn to read or write or do basic math have options, but it takes some initiative to find and exercise those options.

Here's a plan-

Take an unskilled entry level job. Show up on time every day ready to work. Do the best job you can. If you get done with your assigned work, ask for more.

Ask questions of, and observe, people working around you at jobs that require some skill. Be respectful of them and they will likely to be willing if you say "Can I try that? I think I might be able to learn that skill..."


Before you know it, you might be mixing mortar and carrying a hod instead of just cleaning up. With persistence and drive, you could even find yourself laying bricks and block and making lots of money!

Of course if you do what Indy did when he worked for me, you're more likely to end up fired from your "wage slave" job.
  

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Jeff
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Re: "Greed"
Reply #7 - Oct 19th, 2019 at 7:48am
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libertytorch95 wrote on Oct 18th, 2019 at 10:32pm:
What's with greed being used as a bad word? It's just love for money. In other words, love for green pieces of paper. Literally. Not any different from love for movies, books, girls or any other thing one desires in his life. No one should feel bad for that.

It is used when speaking of "unneeded money excess". Arrrright, but who decides what amount of money is excessive? And who gets to decide what is needed? As I see it people who say that seem to imply that all we should have is enough money to live. Enough to afford a single house with some food, a bathroom, a bed and that'd be it, right? But if I want more than what is needed for any human to survive biologically (those things), even if it's one dollar more than the "fair" and "not greedy" amount of money needed to live well enough, does that make me greedy and a bad person?

Another thing that's dumb is the implication that you're greedy for keeping your own money. Sounds logical, until you get to realize that people who say that want you to "share" that money. But the stupid part is that the one you share it with gets it for free, while you get nothing in exchange. I ask, isn't it greedier to receive money for free without benefiting both parties by trading instead? Why do you have to be forced to satisfy the self interest of others by sharing your money with them? People seem to forget being "greedy" or selfish" isn't neither moral nor immoral. You're just pursuing your own self interest by wanting to get more green pieces of paper for yourself, rather than sacrificing your time to satisfy someone else's self interest with them. Altruism is overrated, as it comes from selfishness (if you do good to others it's because YOU want to do it, so you're being selfish like it or not. The only way to garantee you don't satisfy someone else's self interest without satisfying your own is if someone else o forces you to do so without your approval (coercion). Regardless of how much money you have, I see no reason to see why greed is bad.


It just annoys me so much when people say "but what about the poor who can't pay for education, healthcare, etc? You're greedy and selfish for not paying your taxes". I understand the concern but using greed and selfishness as criticisms of those who oppose to pay taxes for that kinda stuff is dumb.

Good post, thanks.

Do you think this qualifies as "greed"?

https://reason.com/2019/10/18/chicago-teachers-go-on-strike-to-demand-higher-pay...

How about if it's viewed in light of the product?

https://www.intellectualtakeout.org/article/public-schools-tearing-human-minds-p...


  

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Little Biq Man
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Re: "Greed"
Reply #8 - Oct 19th, 2019 at 8:28am
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Jeff wrote on Oct 19th, 2019 at 7:43am:
Even people who drop out of school before they learn to read or write or do basic math have options, but it takes some initiative to find and exercise those options.

Here's a plan-

Take an unskilled entry level job. Show up on time every day ready to work. Do the best job you can. If you get done with your assigned work, ask for more.

Ask questions of, and observe, people working around you at jobs that require some skill. Be respectful of them and they will likely to be willing if you say "Can I try that? I think I might be able to learn that skill..."


Before you know it, you might be mixing mortar and carrying a hod instead of just cleaning up. With persistence and drive, you could even find yourself laying bricks and block and making lots of money!

Of course if you do what Indy did when he worked for me, you're more likely to end up fired from your "wage slave" job.


Well said!

And one hundred percent correct.

  
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kaz
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Re: "Greed"
Reply #9 - Oct 19th, 2019 at 9:06am
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libertytorch95 wrote on Oct 18th, 2019 at 10:32pm:
What's with greed being used as a bad word? It's just love for money. In other words, love for green pieces of paper. Literally. Not any different from love for movies, books, girls or any other thing one desires in his life. No one should feel bad for that.

It is used when speaking of "unneeded money excess". Arrrright, but who decides what amount of money is excessive? And who gets to decide what is needed? As I see it people who say that seem to imply that all we should have is enough money to live. Enough to afford a single house with some food, a bathroom, a bed and that'd be it, right? But if I want more than what is needed for any human to survive biologically (those things), even if it's one dollar more than the "fair" and "not greedy" amount of money needed to live well enough, does that make me greedy and a bad person?

Another thing that's dumb is the implication that you're greedy for keeping your own money. Sounds logical, until you get to realize that people who say that want you to "share" that money. But the stupid part is that the one you share it with gets it for free, while you get nothing in exchange. I ask, isn't it greedier to receive money for free without benefiting both parties by trading instead? Why do you have to be forced to satisfy the self interest of others by sharing your money with them? People seem to forget being "greedy" or selfish" isn't neither moral nor immoral. You're just pursuing your own self interest by wanting to get more green pieces of paper for yourself, rather than sacrificing your time to satisfy someone else's self interest with them. Altruism is overrated, as it comes from selfishness (if you do good to others it's because YOU want to do it, so you're being selfish like it or not. The only way to garantee you don't satisfy someone else's self interest without satisfying your own is if someone else o forces you to do so without your approval (coercion). Regardless of how much money you have, I see no reason to see why greed is bad.


It just annoys me so much when people say "but what about the poor who can't pay for education, healthcare, etc? You're greedy and selfish for not paying your taxes". I understand the concern but using greed and selfishness as criticisms of those who oppose to pay taxes for that kinda stuff is dumb.



To Democrats, greed means wanting to keep the money you earned when they want to take it from you by force
  

Contest winner:  I predicted Kaz' meltdown
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