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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) No libertarians agree on what is libertarian (Read 1458 times)
yamcha
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No libertarians agree on what is libertarian
Oct 26th, 2019 at 11:30am
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Not even on which fundamental is fundamental.  That's all.
« Last Edit: Oct 26th, 2019 at 9:08pm by yamcha »  
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SkyChief
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Re: No libertarians agree one what is libertarian
Reply #1 - Oct 26th, 2019 at 11:34am
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Governments will always devise ways to deprive an honest man of his money or property, and claim that it's legal.
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kaz
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Re: No libertarians agree one what is libertarian
Reply #2 - Oct 26th, 2019 at 12:26pm
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yamcha wrote on Oct 26th, 2019 at 11:30am:
Not even on which fundamental is fundamental.  Thats all.


There are different types of libertarians.


There are social libertarians who believe government should freely redistribute money but should be limited in it's power to directly control our lives.

There are minarchists who believe government should provide only those functions that can be provided by a central authority (police, military, ...)

There are classic liberals who are mostly minarchists but they give more latitude at local government level and they allow some more government power with essentially a super majority support.

There are anarchists who believe in no government.

There are geolibertarians who believe government should own all property and the people can only rent it.  This is a big government libertarian.

There are other types.

Tom Palveen is an anarchist.  Opposition worships anarchists but doesn't have any consistent ideology due to mental issues.  LBM is a geolibertarian.  I'm a minarchist at the Federal level, but a classic liberal at the local level.  I'd call Chief a minarchist, he can say if he disagrees. 

Jeff isn't a libertarian at all.  No libertarian would  support government conquering it's own people like he does and he supports wealth redistribution.

Two things that I think any true libertarian would think is they would support consent of the governed and they would oppose wealth redistribution.  Jeff doesn't believe either of those
  

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yamcha
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Re: No libertarians agree one what is libertarian
Reply #3 - Oct 26th, 2019 at 12:44pm
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Then what am I?

yamcha wrote on Jul 31st, 2019 at 9:14pm:
I only want to control my front and backyard. 

I only want taxation through volunteerism.  All nations are just open-air slave plantations, allowing their indentured servant populations to choose their occupation, giving the illusion of freedom then swooping in on payday to steal the fruits of their labor.  This is why all governments are criminal and immoral and why the only just system of government is anarchism or volunteerism.

There is no political solution to the problem of government.  Voting for a new ceremonial figurehead every 4 years has never, can never and could never create any lasting positive change because governments cannot improve or be made moral from within.  There are too many vested interests and no statist system be it monarchy, oligarchy, communism, democracy, republic or dictatorship, none of them respect the right of the individual to opt-out of being governed.

When the mafia comes around to your business they always promise to protect you providing you pay and obey them.  If you refuse to comply, however, the mafia burns your fukking business to the ground.  Similarly, are statist governments promise to help and protect their populations as long as we pay and obey but if we don't then they seize our asses and our assets and throw us in a cage. 

The problem is giving one privileged class the legal right to commit violence and coercion against the rest of the population.  All fukking governments initiate the use of violence in the form of peace officers and coercion, in the form of taxes against their populations and this is completely immoral and unacceptable.  Consensual sex is moral because it is voluntary, whereas rape is immoral because it is forced.  Similarly, things like charity, donation and the free market because they are voluntary, whereas theft and taxation are immoral because they are forced.

The root problem with government is not that it is inherently criminal or corrupt, these are just symptoms and side effects of statism.  The root problem is that its mandates are mandatory and its compulsions, compulsory  For a government to be made into moral institutions, all taxes and interactions must be made voluntary.


  
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kaz
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Re: No libertarians agree one what is libertarian
Reply #4 - Oct 26th, 2019 at 1:00pm
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yamcha wrote on Oct 26th, 2019 at 12:44pm:
Then what am I?



I don't know you well enough to have an opinion.

BTW, I missed ahhell.   He's not a libertarian, and says that. I'm not insulting him.  But he does have a lot of libertarian leanings.  I think he knows that too.

Emotionally he's kind of owned by the left.  But logically, he knows what they are.  If you focus on "what," he's pretty reasonable.  If you start talking about motives and feelings, get ready for DNC talking points.

All I can say about you so far is you do seem to have some libertarian leanings.  But again, I'm only saying I don't know you well enough yet to have a firmer view
  

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The Opposition
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Re: No libertarians agree one what is libertarian
Reply #5 - Oct 26th, 2019 at 1:11pm
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Libertarian 1: This is libertarian, you're an idiot for believing that other thing.
Opposition: Alright, I believe what you just said then.
Libertarian 2: What you believe now is stupid, stupid.
Opposition: But Libertarian 1 just said it was libertarian.
Libertarian 2: Libertarian 1 isn't a libertarian.
Opposition: Okay. I believe that, then.
Libertarian 3: What you believe now is dumb, retard.
Opposition: But Libertarian 2 just said it was libertarian.
Libertarian 3: Libertarian 2 isn't a libertarian.

Lather, rinse, repeat.

The absolute easiest thing for libertarians to dismiss is the Libertarian Party platform and the writers like Locke who are supposed to be the founders of libertarian theory.

When you're allowed to lie about the basics, and misinform people about the NAP, this is what anyone who wants in is going to get.

There is no right to know the rules in a libertarian society. That's because the rules are so very basic that everyone should easily understand them. Yet no two libertarians agree.

I think the truth is that they all agree and pretend they don't to trick others into either aggressing and being punished, or taking less government handouts. I have never taken a government handout in my life, and I'm still the least libertarian poster on the site.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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SkyChief
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Re: No libertarians agree one what is libertarian
Reply #6 - Oct 26th, 2019 at 1:16pm
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 26th, 2019 at 1:11pm:
The absolute easiest thing for libertarians to dismiss is the Libertarian Party platform and the writers like Locke who are supposed to be the founders of libertarian theory.

When you're allowed to lie about the basics, and misinform people about the NAP, this is what anyone who wants in is going to get.
Nailed it!    Smiley

Libertarian Party Platform

https://www.lp.org/platform/
  

Governments will always devise ways to deprive an honest man of his money or property, and claim that it's legal.
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kaz
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Re: No libertarians agree one what is libertarian
Reply #7 - Oct 26th, 2019 at 1:18pm
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 26th, 2019 at 1:11pm:
Libertarian 1: This is libertarian, you're an idiot for believing that other thing.
Opposition: Alright, I believe what you just said then.
Libertarian 2: What you believe now is stupid, stupid.
Opposition: But Libertarian 1 just said it was libertarian.
Libertarian 2: Libertarian 1 isn't a libertarian.
Opposition: Okay. I believe that, then.
Libertarian 3: What you believe now is dumb, retard.
Opposition: But Libertarian 2 just said it was libertarian.
Libertarian 3: Libertarian 2 isn't a libertarian.

Lather, rinse, repeat.

The absolute easiest thing for libertarians to dismiss is the Libertarian Party platform and the writers like Locke who are supposed to be the founders of libertarian theory.

When you're allowed to lie about the basics, and misinform people about the NAP, this is what anyone who wants in is going to get.

There is no right to know the rules in a libertarian society. That's because the rules are so very basic that everyone should easily understand them. Yet no two libertarians agree.

I think the truth is that they all agree and pretend they don't to trick others into either aggressing and being punished, or taking less government handouts. I have never taken a government handout in my life, and I'm still the least libertarian poster on the site.


As I said ...

kaz wrote on Oct 26th, 2019 at 12:26pm:
Opposition worships anarchists but doesn't have any consistent ideology due to mental issues



  

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kaz
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Re: No libertarians agree one what is libertarian
Reply #8 - Oct 26th, 2019 at 1:21pm
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SkyChief wrote on Oct 26th, 2019 at 1:16pm:
Nailed it!    Smiley

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https://www.lp.org/platform/


What's sad is that if libertarian ever became popular, we'd be tea partied.

Republicans all started calling themselves tea partiers for things that had nothing to do with the tea party, like supporting foreign wards and socon policies.

The Democrats demagogued them all as racists until the whole thing fell apart.

Then they all voted for Trump who is driving us fiscally into the ground because no one cares about spending and he's a populist
  

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The Opposition
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Re: No libertarians agree one what is libertarian
Reply #9 - Oct 26th, 2019 at 1:23pm
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I worship libertarians. If that doesn't mean people who uphold the NAP, then I don't worship those people.

The problem is that no one who isn't a libertarian can become one, because you all have it in your own heads what libertarianism is, and you're free to lie about the rules to others.

You've said animals don't have rights, but maybe they do. Maybe you were lying. Maybe you intend to haul every non-vegan off to jail when the society becomes libertarian.

I don't know, because there is no right to know the rules, and libertarians like to exploit that.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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