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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) No libertarians agree on what is libertarian (Read 1437 times)
SkyChief
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Re: No libertarians agree one what is libertarian
Reply #10 - Oct 26th, 2019 at 1:34pm
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Some fundamental Libertarian tenets:

Self Ownership.  All individuals are sovereign over their own lives.

Government's essential function is to PROTECT and DEFEND the individual's right to Life, Liberty, and Property.  That's all they need funding for.

Non Aggression Principle.

Taxation by coercion is WRONG and has no place in a civilized society.

Education is best provided by the free market.  Parents should assume the responsibility for funding their children’s education - NOT the State.
  

Governments will always devise ways to deprive an honest man of his money or property, and claim that it's legal.
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The Opposition
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Re: No libertarians agree one what is libertarian
Reply #11 - Oct 26th, 2019 at 1:38pm
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SkyChief wrote on Oct 26th, 2019 at 1:34pm:
Some fundamental Libertarian tenets:

Self Ownership.

Government's essential function is to PROTECT and DEFEND the individual's right to Life, Liberty, and Property.  That's all they need funding for.

Non Aggression Principle.

Taxation by coercion is WRONG and has no place in a civilized society.

Education is best provided by the free market.  Parents should assume the responsibility for funding their children’s education - NOT the State.


I have seen all of these things disputed hotly.

I can even provide a Mises article that disputes the right to actually defend property in some cases.

If you think those things are fundamental, that's nice, but I have zero evidence they are fundamental.

You could be simply lying. Or those who dispute you could be lying. Because there is no right to know the rules, I have no way to know.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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SkyChief
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Re: No libertarians agree one what is libertarian
Reply #12 - Oct 26th, 2019 at 1:45pm
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 26th, 2019 at 1:38pm:
I can even provide a Mises article that disputes the right to actually defend property in some cases.

I would love to read it.. Mises gets some things wrong.

Quote:
If you think those things are fundamental, that's nice, but I have zero evidence they are fundamental.
All those things I got from https://www.lp.org/platform/

Quote:
You could be simply lying. .
I'm not. . . . it's all there.  Scout's honor.
  

Governments will always devise ways to deprive an honest man of his money or property, and claim that it's legal.
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Jeff
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Re: No libertarians agree one what is libertarian
Reply #13 - Oct 26th, 2019 at 1:46pm
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SkyChief wrote on Oct 26th, 2019 at 1:34pm:
Taxation by coercion is WRONG and has no place in a civilized society.

Education is best provided by the free market.  Parents should assume the responsibility for funding their children’s education - NOT the State.
Taxation without the threat of coercion is called charity, and people don't willingly give money to governments, even when they want their lives and property protected by the government.

Public education, done correctly, offers a good basic education, even to children whose parents can't afford it.

Dreaming that all schools will be private, and that those private for profit schools will educate any child who wants an education for free if they cant afford to pay is a nice dream... Has it ever happened anywhere?

How many charity scholarships do private schools currently offer? Could they afford to educate 15-20% of their students (or more) for free? Would the parents of paying students be willing to pay that much more, or would they look for a cheaper school that seemed just as good, but was cheaper because it didn't have any free riders?
  

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kaz
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Re: No libertarians agree one what is libertarian
Reply #14 - Oct 26th, 2019 at 1:48pm
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 26th, 2019 at 1:23pm:
I worship libertarians. If that doesn't mean people who uphold the NAP, then I don't worship those people.

The problem is that no one who isn't a libertarian can become one, because you all have it in your own heads what libertarianism is, and you're free to lie about the rules to others.

You've said animals don't have rights, but maybe they do. Maybe you were lying. Maybe you intend to haul every non-vegan off to jail when the society becomes libertarian.

I don't know, because there is no right to know the rules, and libertarians like to exploit that.


More of your inane prattling
  

Contest winner:  I predicted Kaz' meltdown
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SkyChief
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Re: No libertarians agree one what is libertarian
Reply #15 - Oct 26th, 2019 at 1:49pm
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Jeff wrote on Oct 26th, 2019 at 1:46pm:
Taxation without the threat of coercion is called charity, and people don't willingly give money to governments, even when they want their lives and property protected by the government.

Not always.

Tariffs are a form of taxation without coercion.   So are Sales taxes.
  

Governments will always devise ways to deprive an honest man of his money or property, and claim that it's legal.
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kaz
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Re: No libertarians agree one what is libertarian
Reply #16 - Oct 26th, 2019 at 1:51pm
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 26th, 2019 at 1:38pm:
I have seen all of these things disputed hotly.

I can even provide a Mises article that disputes the right to actually defend property in some cases


Of course you can't in all cases.  You can't shoot someone say for trying to pick pocket your wallet, it's not proportional to the harm.  You could punch them.  What libertarian would say you could shoot them?
  

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Jeff
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Re: No libertarians agree one what is libertarian
Reply #17 - Oct 26th, 2019 at 2:00pm
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SkyChief wrote on Oct 26th, 2019 at 1:49pm:
Not always.

Tariffs are a form of taxation without coercion.   So are Sales taxes.
You keep saying that, but you can't get your groceries out of the store without paying the sales tax, and the store owners can't decide to just keep the sales tax they've collected.

You also can't get the goods you ordered from overseas into the country without paying the tariff. If you are lucky, you can pass the tax on when you resell the goods, but the people who buy your goods can't say, "I'll pay the price you ask, minus the increase in the price that's due to the tariff", and they can't say that because you can't afford to sell your goods at a loss, or even at a price that includes no profit.

The coercion is stil there, it's just hidden a bit.
  

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The Opposition
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Re: No libertarians agree one what is libertarian
Reply #18 - Oct 26th, 2019 at 2:00pm
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SkyChief wrote on Oct 26th, 2019 at 1:45pm:
I would love to read it.. Mises gets some things wrong.


I've linked it ad nauseum on this forum, only to have people tell me I misread it without saying how. But here it is in black and white: You may not defend your bubblegum from an urchin who steals it if that would kill him. You just have to let him take it because his life is more valuable than your bubblegum.

https://mises.org/library/right-self-defense
Quote:
Secondly, we may ask: must we go along with those libertarians who claim that a storekeeper has the right to kill a lad as punishment for snatching a piece of his bubblegum? What we might call the "maximalist" position goes as follows: by stealing the bubblegum, the urchin puts himself outside the law. He demonstrates by his action that he does not hold or respect the correct theory of property rights. Therefore, he loses all of his rights, and the storekeeper is within his rights to kill the lad in retaliation.

I propose that this position suffers from a grotesque lack of proportion. By concentrating on the storekeeper's right to his bubblegum, it totally ignores another highly precious property-right: every man's — including the urchin's — right of self-ownership. On what basis must we hold that a minuscule invasion of another's property lays one forfeit to the total loss of one's own?

I propose another fundamental rule regarding crime: the criminal, or invader, loses his own right to the extent that he has deprived another man of his. If a man deprives another man of some of his self-ownership or its extension in physical property, to that extent does he lose his own rights.5 From this principle immediately derives the proportionality theory of punishment — best summed up in the old adage: "let the punishment fit the crime."

We conclude that the shopkeeper's shooting of the erring lad went beyond this proportionate loss of rights, to wounding or killing the criminal; this going beyond is in itself an invasion of the property right in his own person of the bubblegum thief. In fact, the storekeeper has become a far greater criminal than the thief, for he has killed or wounded his victim — a far graver invasion of another's rights than the original shoplifting.


Think about this for a moment. You can never commit a greater offence against rights than your aggressor committed.

This means that an initiatory aggressor can only win. He can win, or he can sue, if he loses even slightly.

The urchin is basically free to take unlimited items, because his life is more valuable than any of them and since he's poor, that's all he has, and you can never take it.

If (and only if) the shopkeeper can retrieve the item from the urchin without harming him at all, he can, but I imagine that he can't sock the kid or even bruise him. Once we're into, well, life is more valuable than that, all of that follows. Because who is to say that a bruise is worth less than 25¢? I have no evidence for that. If the urchin sues me for leaving a bruise on him, I have no defence.

SkyChief wrote on Oct 26th, 2019 at 1:45pm:
All those things I got from https://www.lp.org/platform/


I know. And if I link www.lp.org, I get shat on. They don't represent actual libertarians, you see.

SkyChief wrote on Oct 26th, 2019 at 1:45pm:
I'm not. . . . it's all there.  Scout's honor.


For all I know they lie too.

I want positions that will be respected by actual libertarians, not shat on and called stupid.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
-SnarkySack
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Jeff
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Re: No libertarians agree one what is libertarian
Reply #19 - Oct 26th, 2019 at 2:11pm
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The Opposition wrote on Oct 26th, 2019 at 2:00pm:
I've linked it ad nauseum on this forum, only to have people tell me I misread it without saying how. But here it is in black and white: You may not defend your bubblegum from an urchin who steals it if that would kill him. You just have to let him take it because his life is more valuable than your bubblegum.

You disagree with that?

In fact, you don't have to just let her steal the bubblegum. You can physically restrain her and call the police. If she fights you when you restrain her, you can use ascending proportional force to protect yourself. Smiley
  

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