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Little Biq Man
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Suppose my Child Does Not Attend School, because . . .
Nov 2nd, 2019 at 9:23pm
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He develops severe combined immunodeficiency (SCID), a condition that his pre-school aged sister already has.  His sister has been living as a "bubble child" but with the son also needing the sterile environment, we decided to make our house into a bubble house.  My wife and I access it only through a washing station in the attic, which is a double doored airlock so that we can enter it, clean ourselves, and sterilize the air inside before we enter the main part of the house with our children. 

We have a deed to the house and there are numerous no trespassing signs and signs indicating that the house is a sterile environment. 

We are reported to CPS for not sending our child to school.  A CPS worker and two police officers approach with a court order to talk to the children and a battering ram.

If I shoot them from the vantage point of the outside attic door, is that murder or defending my property?

  
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yamcha
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Re: Suppose my Child Does Not Attend School, because . . .
Reply #1 - Nov 2nd, 2019 at 9:31pm
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You would be arrested for indecent exposure and ejaculating in front of the cops.
  
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The Opposition
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Re: Suppose my Child Does Not Attend School, because . . .
Reply #2 - Nov 2nd, 2019 at 10:25pm
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Yeah, and I get complaints about asking the same question over again.

Now you're asking my questions over again.

"Can you self-defend against innocents?"

In your scenario, assuming the Child Protective Services worker didn't just bring a battering ram of his own accord, but has been told to do so by the government, he's a functionary doing his job and you're shooting a functionary.

I say no, no you cannot self-defend against innocents. If there's really and truly no opportunity to resolve the matter (see how I'm the only one on the board who will accept the problem provided and won't just go, lol, your scenario is a stupid edge case I don't have to answer that) you have to let your kids die.

...or it's murder.

You're free to murder a functionary and accept the punishment if your kids' lives are worth more, and it seems to be the logical choice in this scenario.

Still aggression. Can't self-defend against innocents, at least not with lethal force. If lethal force is the only option then you have no option but to aggress or let your kids die.

(Note that I'm only saying no you can't self-defend against innocents so the heavy hitters will contradict me and say yes, you can self-defend against innocents, and then at least we'll have the answer.)

If that functionary knew the situation, however, and was prepared to batter down the door of a bubble house, he ought to have resigned and has every obligation to do so, even if he would starve. In this case, he isn't innocent and you can self-defend with lethal force, because he is an aggressor about to use lethal force.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
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yamcha
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Re: Suppose my Child Does Not Attend School, because . . .
Reply #3 - Nov 2nd, 2019 at 10:31pm
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The Opposition wrote on Nov 2nd, 2019 at 10:25pm:
Yeah, and I get complaints about asking the same question over again.

Now you're asking my questions over again.


He needs to stop too since his questions also have been answered exhaustively by everyone here, just like yours.

You still stubbornly make the same statement I see.
  
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Jeff
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Re: Suppose my Child Does Not Attend School, because . . .
Reply #4 - Nov 3rd, 2019 at 8:15am
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Little Biq Man wrote on Nov 2nd, 2019 at 9:23pm:
He develops severe combined immunodeficiency (SCID), a condition that his pre-school aged sister already has.  His sister has been living as a "bubble child" but with the son also needing the sterile environment, we decided to make our house into a bubble house.  My wife and I access it only through a washing station in the attic, which is a double doored airlock so that we can enter it, clean ourselves, and sterilize the air inside before we enter the main part of the house with our children. 

We have a deed to the house and there are numerous no trespassing signs and signs indicating that the house is a sterile environment. 

We are reported to CPS for not sending our child to school.  A CPS worker and two police officers approach with a court order to talk to the children and a battering ram.

If I shoot them from the vantage point of the outside attic door, is that murder or defending my property?

Murder by reason of your stupidity.
  

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Little Biq Man
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Re: Suppose my Child Does Not Attend School, because . . .
Reply #5 - Nov 3rd, 2019 at 8:23am
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The Opposition wrote on Nov 2nd, 2019 at 10:25pm:
Yeah, and I get complaints about asking the same question over again.

Now you're asking my questions over again.

"Can you self-defend against innocents?"

In your scenario, assuming the Child Protective Services worker didn't just bring a battering ram of his own accord, but has been told to do so by the government, he's a functionary doing his job and you're shooting a functionary.

I say no, no you cannot self-defend against innocents. If there's really and truly no opportunity to resolve the matter (see how I'm the only one on the board who will accept the problem provided and won't just go, lol, your scenario is a stupid edge case I don't have to answer that) you have to let your kids die.

...or it's murder.

You're free to murder a functionary and accept the punishment if your kids' lives are worth more, and it seems to be the logical choice in this scenario.

Still aggression. Can't self-defend against innocents, at least not with lethal force. If lethal force is the only option then you have no option but to aggress or let your kids die.

(Note that I'm only saying no you can't self-defend against innocents so the heavy hitters will contradict me and say yes, you can self-defend against innocents, and then at least we'll have the answer.)

If that functionary knew the situation, however, and was prepared to batter down the door of a bubble house, he ought to have resigned and has every obligation to do so, even if he would starve. In this case, he isn't innocent and you can self-defend with lethal force, because he is an aggressor about to use lethal force.


If the police officer and the CPS workers are the innocents, who is the guilty?

If I shoot them all out of no malice, but only to protect my child, am I the guilty?
  
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Jeff
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Re: Suppose my Child Does Not Attend School, because . . .
Reply #6 - Nov 3rd, 2019 at 8:31am
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Little Biq Man wrote on Nov 3rd, 2019 at 8:23am:
If the police officer and the CPS workers are the innocents, who is the guilty?

The CPS workers are not innocent if they asked for a court order without learning anything about your children.

The judge who issued the order is also guilty for sending out his minions without first learning anything relevant about the situation.

The people who went to your house... Are we to assume they couldn't read?

"...signs indicating that the house is a sterile environment."

Edit: But you, who started shooting, are the most guilty of all. Did you never think of talking to them first?

I've noticed this about you, you think it's better to shoot first, and talk later. Cheesy
  

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Little Biq Man
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Re: Suppose my Child Does Not Attend School, because . . .
Reply #7 - Nov 3rd, 2019 at 8:45am
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Jeff wrote on Nov 3rd, 2019 at 8:31am:
The CPS workers are not innocent if they asked for a court order without learning anything about your children.


That is their procedure in my state.  They get a report, they ask for a court order.  They always get them, because there is no one representing the parent and what judge is going to say "no, you cannot go talk to those children who you have information are being abused?"   In fact, often the court clerk signs the order, which is incredible, but true. 

A court order for them to talk to the children does not mean they have the "legal right," as you would put it, to enter the house, but they always tell the parent that it does.  The police officer backs them up, but usually does not use force, because they all know it is a lie. 
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The judge who issued the order is also guilty for sending out his minions without first learning anything relevant about the situation.


I don't disagree, but I wonder what you would expect the judge to do to learn about the children's health condition?

Is it not the system that is flawed, in that it allows parents' "non-absolute" rights to be taken in a one-sided procedure?
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The people who went to your house... Are we to assume they couldn't read?

"...signs indicating that the house is a sterile environment."


If they graduated from your beloved public school system, that is always a possibility.

But I do not believe that most government officials who believe themselves on a mission to protect children, as over-zealous CPS cases workers often do, would pay a lick of attention to a sign like that even if their reading level was normal. 


  
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Jeff
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Re: Suppose my Child Does Not Attend School, because . . .
Reply #8 - Nov 3rd, 2019 at 9:13am
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Little Biq Man wrote on Nov 3rd, 2019 at 8:45am:
I don't disagree, but I wonder what you would expect the judge to do to learn about the children's health condition?


Tell the CPS to contact the child's school and the child's physician. I'm assuming the school would have contacted the parents to ask "Why isn't Suzy coming to school?", then asked for corroborating information from the child's physician.
  

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Jeff
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Re: Suppose my Child Does Not Attend School, because . . .
Reply #9 - Nov 3rd, 2019 at 9:15am
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Little Biq Man wrote on Nov 3rd, 2019 at 8:45am:
But I do not believe that most government officials who believe themselves on a mission to protect children, as over-zealous CPS cases workers often do, would pay a lick of attention to a sign like that even if their reading level was normal. 
I'm in favor of getting rid of all Child Protective Services. Who created them in the first place? "Progressives".
  

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