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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Emotional Support Horses Must be Allowed on Public Accommodations (Read 2284 times)
kaz
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Re: Emotional Support Horses Must be Allowed on Public Accommodations
Reply #160 - Nov 14th, 2019 at 8:20am
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Jeff wrote on Nov 14th, 2019 at 7:25am:
In the example I mentioned, I was the boss of the subcontractors, they were the bosses of their employees, and they no doubt spoke seriously to their employees about what they had done, and the behavior stopped


Once again Jeff gets on a table and screams at them, they go back and get on a table and scream at their employees.  Jeff doesn't have a clue as to how to actually fix the problems by analyzing and fixing processes.  People like you create toxic cultures, you don't fix them.  That's what actually happened, isn't it, Jeff?

When a mistake happens, that's a great chance to walk through your processes and procedures and analyze:

1) Where they broke down

2) How to improve them to avoid repeating the mistake

You should so some Googling on the military.  They do this better than anyone.  It's more important than all our cool weapons as to why we have the greatest fighting force on earth.  Mistakes there are someone or some people were killed
  

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Jeff
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Re: Emotional Support Horses Must be Allowed on Public Accommodations
Reply #161 - Nov 14th, 2019 at 8:27am
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kaz wrote on Nov 14th, 2019 at 8:02am:
Once again a statement by someone who's never been remotely in management.  You don't get them to work together that way.  You design a process of how they work together.  Putting them on the job site at the same time would accomplish nothing if you stop there
They worked out ways of working together on their own, because they had to. All they had to do was talk to each other and plan ahead. In most cases, the plumbers have more options as to where they can run pipes than the heating men have as to where they can run heat ducts, but there are times, especially with waste lines, that it makes sense to say, "I really need to use that bay for my waste line from the upstairs bathroom... Can you put your heat duct one bay over?"

It's not possible to "design a process" for this in the sort of work situation I'm talking about.

It's a situation where people are assigned to work together to accomplish a single goal...

If you have a job that  needs to be accomplished, lets say replacing the engine in a large SUV with a V-8 engine, and you assign two people to do the work...

Those two people are best situated to know who should do what so they can help each other do the job. There is a process in a manual that provides step by step instructions that they will follow, but it's best to leave it up to them to work out their partnership, and they will do it in almost all cases...

"Hey, my hands are too big to fit in there and unplug that connector- you're hands are small..."

"I'm really good at operating the overhead hoist, let me do it this time, and I'll let you practice on less critical operations.''

"I'm having trouble with this... Have you ever done it before?"

In some instances, a crew chief will be needed to keep things organized and running smoothly... "Red, when you get done nailing down that sub-floor, start handing up studs for the upstairs walls. Kenny, you and the Kid start laying out the downstairs interior walls and building them..." Stuff like that.

In other work situations, you just give people a job and tell them, "You know where to find me if you need anything."

Always, it's a management responsibility to organize the work flow and make sure that the needed tools, and materials, and supplies, are available when it's time to accomplish any stage of the work.
  

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kaz
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Re: Emotional Support Horses Must be Allowed on Public Accommodations
Reply #162 - Nov 14th, 2019 at 10:12am
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Jeff wrote on Nov 14th, 2019 at 8:27am:
They worked out ways of working together on their own, because they had to. All they had to do was talk to each other and plan ahead


No wonder your environment was toxic and as you said your employees screwed each other.  You were utterly incompetent and they weren't managed.

Jeff:  I walked into a toxic environment where the workers were "screwing" each other.  I explained I wanted that behavior to stop and we'd all be better off, and it did!  Then I assigned two people to a job and told them to figure it out themselves because I didn't know how to organize their work.  I told them I'd fire them both if they didn't.  They hugged and sang Kumbaya and the problems ended!

Your honor, I rest my case.  Jeff doesn't have a fukking clue what he's talking about
  

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The Opposition
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Re: Emotional Support Horses Must be Allowed on Public Accommodations
Reply #163 - Nov 14th, 2019 at 10:20am
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Jeff wrote on Nov 14th, 2019 at 7:25am:
In the example I mentioned, I was the boss of the subcontractors, they were the bosses of their employees, and they no doubt spoke seriously to their employees about what they had done, and the behavior stopped.


I admit I've never been in charge of anyone else. But I know how toxic workplace culture is.

Boss says: Hey, I need your team to not do this anymore, but here are zero good solutions and zero ways to stop it. Do my job for me, but without the authority to do so. Thanks.
Employee hears: Keep doing whatever the %$#& you're doing and if there's a problem, I don't want to hear about it, because if I hear about it, I'll probably fire you.
  

This moral relativism of yours is exactly what lets government take this freedom, then that freedom, until we have lost them all.
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Jeff
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Re: Emotional Support Horses Must be Allowed on Public Accommodations
Reply #164 - Nov 14th, 2019 at 12:14pm
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kaz wrote on Nov 14th, 2019 at 10:12am:
No wonder your environment was toxic and as you said your employees screwed each other.
Read carefully, the plumbers did it once.

It was outrageous enough that I took immediate action, and it never happened again. They were really screwing me and the company I worked for, and they were the employees of sub-contractors, not my employees.

In another situation entirely, the manager of the previous shift was screwing me by not requiring that his people clean up for themselves, and turning over bad work to me so that I was forced to have my people rectify their mistakes. The manager of the previous told me "Don't worry about it", and so did the manager that we both worked for. That was out of my hands, but I did succeed in getting the people who worked for me, on my shift, to start thinking of each other as people involved in a common project that would be more easily accomplished and more satisfying if they were considerate of others, and some of that rubbed off on other shifts.

"I'll try to help you if you try to help me" was my basic proposal, and I went out of my way to try to help them first, so they knew I wasn't just blowing smoke. Basic organization of the workflow and the work area, as well as making sure needed tools, and materials, and supplies, and paperwork were available was the help I provided, and they appreciated it.
  

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Re: Emotional Support Horses Must be Allowed on Public Accommodations
Reply #165 - Nov 14th, 2019 at 12:28pm
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The Opposition wrote on Nov 14th, 2019 at 10:20am:
But I know how toxic workplace culture is.

Maybe some places it is, but never anywhere I worked, although occasionally I worked for a toxic boss, and there always seems to be a jerkwad or two in any large organization. Smiley
  

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kaz
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Re: Emotional Support Horses Must be Allowed on Public Accommodations
Reply #166 - Nov 14th, 2019 at 3:50pm
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Jeff wrote on Nov 14th, 2019 at 12:14pm:
Read carefully, the plumbers did it once.

It was outrageous enough that I took immediate action, and it never happened again. They were really screwing me and the company I worked for, and they were the employees of sub-contractors, not my employees.

In another situation entirely, the manager of the previous shift was screwing me by not requiring that his people clean up for themselves, and turning over bad work to me so that I was forced to have my people rectify their mistakes. The manager of the previous told me "Don't worry about it", and so did the manager that we both worked for. That was out of my hands, but I did succeed in getting the people who worked for me, on my shift, to start thinking of each other as people involved in a common project that would be more easily accomplished and more satisfying if they were considerate of others, and some of that rubbed off on other shifts.

"I'll try to help you if you try to help me" was my basic proposal, and I went out of my way to try to help them first, so they knew I wasn't just blowing smoke. Basic organization of the workflow and the work area, as well as making sure needed tools, and materials, and supplies, and paperwork were available was the help I provided, and they appreciated it.


OK, so you were a paper pusher who coordinated subcontractors and told them when to be on job sites but you had no real power or influence.

Why do you do that to yourself, Jeff?  You make up that you were in management when you obviously weren't, then you're a dick about it telling me "if" I was in management and waiving a red cape in front of my face when you didn't know how to bull fight.

ODD is the strangest thing.  You just make your own life difficult and you make yourself look like a dumb ass for no real benefit.  And you do it to yourself over and over.

Opposition just said he never managed anyone, and no one picked on him.  That could have been you, Jeff
  

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Re: Emotional Support Horses Must be Allowed on Public Accommodations
Reply #167 - Nov 14th, 2019 at 3:53pm
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Jeff wrote on Nov 14th, 2019 at 12:28pm:
Maybe some places it is, but never anywhere I worked, although occasionally I worked for a toxic boss, and there always seems to be a jerkwad or two in any large organization. Smiley


Right.  And you'd just solve the problem by telling them they're being a jerkwad and that is making your and their lives difficult, so they should stop it for their own benefit.  They'd say wow, you're right and stop.  Then you'd group hug and sing Kumbaya ...
  

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Jeff
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Re: Emotional Support Horses Must be Allowed on Public Accommodations
Reply #168 - Nov 14th, 2019 at 4:59pm
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kaz wrote on Nov 14th, 2019 at 3:53pm:
Right.  And you'd just solve the problem by telling them they're being a jerkwad and that is making your and their lives difficult, so they should stop it for their own benefit.  They'd say wow, you're right and stop.  Then you'd group hug and sing Kumbaya ...
You got me reminiscing about work, and it led back to my first day at my first real job. (Working at a YMCA day camp was unreal!).

The boss dropped me off at a house I was to clean out with a push broom and a #2 shove, gave me a tour, introduced me to the carpenters that were working there, showed me how to use a piece of plywood to push large amounts of stuff around, and then left.

I started in cleaning out the house, which had quite  a bit of sawdust and wood scraps in it. When I came to the first carpenter's tool box sitting on the floor, I cleaned up to it, then picked it up to move it to the clean side... As soon as I had it off the floor Red yelled "Don't touch my tools".

He was crappity smacking with me. I was 15 and experiencing my first day on my new job, which paid $1.35/hour.

I guess I handled it alright... I sat his tool box back down on the unclean side , hesitated, then turned to him and said "Sorry, if that's where you want it, I'll leave it right there" and went on about my work.

I learned a lot that summer (and after school that fall & winter) and made some friends too. And saved some money. Smiley

Edit:I swept around al the other tool boxes as I went. Never touched them, and didn't speak to any of the carpenters again, and none of them spoke to me. The next time I say them, they drew me in, and we laughed together about my first day.

I learned a lot from those guys, and many others I worked around and with too.

By the time I headed off to college, I had enough money to pay for it, and was competent in several building trades, and a good all around handy man.

This paid off, and got me summer jobs at college, so I could stay there.

Lot's of good experiences along the way, and lots of good people, and more friends...

I told you about my friend who was born in Syria to a Turk and a Greek, and was left in a Catholic convent in Syria when is parents fled the country ahead of Qaddafi's thugs? If not for working, I never would have met him... Or the French guy who told me about his previous lives...
  

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Jeff
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Re: Emotional Support Horses Must be Allowed on Public Accommodations
Reply #169 - Nov 14th, 2019 at 5:37pm
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Geez, kaz, thanks! Reminiscing about work got me up to working in the E&R Dept. of a nifty old legacy pioneer paper mill, and then in the mill itself as a spare worker...

That was enough for now. I'm overloaded with good and fantastic memories. Smiley

Edit: I have some fantastic memories of those very real times in my life.

Don't get confused. Thanks.

Edit: The most horrifying memories of al my work experience were in the mill itself... I must have been crazy! Maybe not quite as crazy as when I applied for a job in a local deep coal mine...  Yikes! What was I thinking? Oh yeah, I remember... I need money to live. Smiley
  

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